Transcription of the recorded statement of Tom Haenle, then Director of Student Services and University Center, conducted by the Commission on KSU Violence.

[Unknown Speaker]: Testing, 1, 2, 3.

[Tom Haenle]: I talk–I don’t talk too loudly, and you better use as much treble as possible, because my voice gets, I don’t know–

[Unknown Speaker]: I don’t know which way treble is, but–

[Tom Haenle]: I’m Tom Haenle, and I’m Director of Student Services and the University Center, which includes the present Student Union. I heard about the difficulties on Saturday morning, that is in regard to Friday night–what took place Friday night in the downtown area, and worked towards getting things set up in the Student Union for that night, in terms of being open, being–having entertainment available and whatnot. I talked to the Union personnel and asked them to be in contact with me, as I was going to be delayed until early evening in terms of getting back to the school. I received a call some time after 7:30–time is a little vague at this point–that–so, it perhaps was more close to 8:00, that there was a crowd of students out behind the Student Union around the ROTC [Reserve Officers’ Training Corps] building. Or is it pronounced ROTC here I guess?

So I proceeded to come into the city, and I rode in with my assistant Jerry Young and my next door neighbor, Dr. Larry Litwack. We came into the city without any difficulty as far as being stopped, and the rumor at that time was that they were stopping people coming into the city. Saw no police, sheriffs of any type, and came into the campus from Crane Avenue to Main, on the street near Tinker’s Funeral Home–I can’t think of the name of the street.

[Unknown Speaker]: Luther.

[Tom Haenle]: Luther. As we came to the corner of Luther, we were the first car to reach the corner, and at that time a large crowd was coming down Main Street towards the downtown section. Tearing down stop signs, the apparatus for the signals and things of this type. But they were also shouting, “Do not touch the cars, do not touch the cars.” There were marshals in and around, but the crowd seemed to be–to have it’s own impetus. As they passed and went further down the street, we then parked our car in Tinker Funeral Home parking lot there and walked over campus. Meanwhile the crowd went far down I think as Main and Lincoln, according to what I’ve heard. And from then on I was in and around the Union and out in the back of the building, and at that time there were no students around the ROTC building, it was–the police were there. To the best of my knowledge they were–appeared to be our campus police. Things were very quiet at that point. 

So I stayed in touch with the people in the Union. They were kind of upset–very upset naturally–our staff. And it wasn’t too long before we heard that the crowd had been turned away from Main and Lincoln and were proceeding back to campus. About–I believe it was around 10 o’clock, the police that had been behind the building came in the Union through the Hub entrance–that is, the supply room and kitchen entrance of the union for the hub–that is, the snack bar–and asked everyone to get out of the building because the fire had blazed again and they were worried about explosion. So we quickly got all of the Union people out–all the staff, that is. And then asked students, there were very few, but those who were there were asked to leave. I don’t think that took more than 2 minutes at the most. As I walked out the front door of the Union facing Lowry Hall, a crowd came around between Lowry and Moulton and I went to my left, which was up the hill towards Merrill or Kent Hall– that direction. I’ll use the word students, though I won’t suggest they’re all students, but I’ll use the word students, came around the corner of Lowry and appeared to start to pick up some of the bricks and mortar, objects that were lying there. By the time I got up to the top of the hill I noticed that there were police standing there in a line across from–sort of Merrill side, to the Union facing down the hill towards the Education building, and they shortly let go with tear gas. This dispersed the crowd, which went in all directions. Some of the people, I guess, that came out of the Union building went in the other direction and were slightly affected by the gas. At that point, then, the ROTC building started to blaze furiously and seemed to be engulfed in flames.

[Unknown Speaker]: Excuse me, Tom, the building was afire when you came?

[Tom Haenle]: No, it was smoldering–

[Unknown Speaker]: No, I mean had been burning–

[Tom Haenle]: It–yes, and the firemen had been here and left. 

[Unknown Speaker]: Okay.

[Tom Haenle]: Now the rest is somewhat vague because it was so confused at the time. Firemen were coming out of the campus at this point, I think one truck was coming in through Portage, off Summit, and another came up the hill– up the roadway past the Education Building. The gates–the obstacles there had to be taken down so they could get through. This truck had National Guard on it, and that was the first I’d seen of the National Guard. I also believe there were sheriff deputies and other people around at that time–by this time. But that was the first entrance of the National Guard that I had noticed. And then from then on it was just a matter of being around the area while the ROTC building burned to the ground. If there were students around at that time they were behind the building on the Commons area, to the best of my knowledge. Different people–crowd gathered at the top of the hill overlooking ROTC building and I don’t think beyond that I saw any more what we would call militants because they were somewhere else at that point. I left campus around midnight. My main concern at that point was the Union building and its staff and what was happening there. And then when the ROTC building began to–when it was a complete loss, when it appeared to be a complete loss, and they had pretty well controlled the fire, at that point I left, 12:30 I guess it was around that exact time. Came into campus the next afternoon around 1:00, 1:30, somewhere in that area, and went over to the Administration Building where the Student Affairs staff was headquartered and spent a little time there and then went over to find out what was going on–what had taken place. I did hear the speech that Governor Rhodes made before I came on campus so I was somewhat cognizant of the situation as it prevailed then in terms of the National Guard and the fact that they were now on our campus and were evidently going to stay there. Spent most of my time during the afternoon in and around the Union building, which of course is one of my prime responsibilities, and was there until early evening when the crowd started to gather out in front of the Union sometime around 7 o’clock or after. This crowd developed into a considerable size. I personally did not see many students that I recognized, but that’s my own personal opinion. But it appeared at that point that there were a lot there that normally don’t come in and out of the Union daily. And some time just before 8 o’clock, one or two, maybe three or four people in the crowd started down the hill towards Engleman Hall and at that point the total crowd followed these people and they went around the other side of Engleman onto the Commons. I stayed in and around the Union area trying to keep the staff calm–they were very upset–and at that point, again, there were very few people in the Union. From then on, the crowd behind–on the Commons–I could hear helicopters all the time, of course–evidently proceeded–well, I became aware of them again when they reached the front of the Education Building. What took place back there I can’t say, ‘cause I wasn’t there. They walked–they were somewhat dispersed at that point, they weren’t a solid group as they had been the night before, least from my point of view. Most of the time I spent standing up around Lowry and Moulton Hall as the action took place down toward Main and Lincoln. I saw a lot of Guardsmen coming in from the other side of campus–that is, the Portage side–and down in front of Kent Hall, down towards the Library, and really didn’t know what was going on. There was–seemed to be a lot of confusion in terms of the campus curfew, which originally I understand was 1:00 a.m. Then, when the group was in the back of the Union, I heard that they had said it was going to be 9:00. And then as the group was down in front of the Library I heard the curfew was then 10:00. There was five–a five minute notice given to students when they were behind the building–that is the Union–to go back to the dorms where they belong. Students were saying as they passed me by Lowry, when the group was down in front of the Library, that they had 10 minutes to get back to the dorms, and then I did hear the announcement myself of a car that went around the front of the Administration Building in the semicircle there. So, as it appeared to me it was quite confusing at that point.

[recording resumes after a short break]

At that point I came over to what was called the Crisis Center in the Administration Building and stayed there until about 1:00 or 1:30. And at that–in the Crisis Center they were getting reports on what was happening to the group out in front of the Library and the follow up as they broke up and went up Summit and towards the back of campus. That was by police radio we were hearing most of our reports and calls that were coming in. Monday, when I came into work, the rumor was that there was going to be a meeting in the Commons–on the Commons, at noon. In fact I think this rumor prevailed Sunday night. We just went through normal processes that morning at least, trying to determine what would take place and what kind of crowd would develop and I spent the time talking to staff and trying to keep them calm and collected throughout the building, because they were all very concerned about what was going to happen and what had happened. At that point they hadn't been brought up to date. So, we spent our time talking to them and keeping them informed.

Around 11:50 I received a phone call and couldn't convince the party that I wanted to go, I wanted to be out in the back of the Union to see what was going on. So, I sent my assistant, Jerry Young, up, and this was just around noon. When I got upstairs they had already lobbed the first tear gas into the group, which was behind the Union on the Commons. So what I was doing was–at that point was calling in to the Crisis Center, at least what was taking place–informing them of what was going on.

The Guards seemed to be pretty uptight, I tried to talk to one of the individuals to ask him something and he was pretty nasty to the point. So, this was confusing in the sense that the Guard was standing in front of us. We were trying to keep people inside the building that were coming out of the cafeteria doors to the back. Someone appeared to have difficulty in the National Guard line and suddenly there was an ambulance there.

The ambulance picked up somebody and took them up the hill alongside Taylor. So at that point the crowd at the top of Taylor either split up very quickly or weren't really gathered up along the side between Taylor and Johnson. The Guard continued to throw tear gas in, and the crowd continued to–what’ll I call it? Appeared to be aggravating the Guard.

[quiet laugh]

But anyway, then suddenly I noticed that two lines were developing and one was going up one side of Taylor and one the other side of Taylor. This I personally didn't understand because it appeared to me like they were leaving the majority of their support and proceeding up the hill away from the rest of the Guard and they were–appeared to be small groups. Then of course the one on the–on my right, which would be between Taylor and Johnson, disappeared over the top of the hill. And at that point I went in and made a call–I guess I was in the process of making the call, watching this out the back. So, that when the shots were fired, I didn't hear them, I was inside informing people what was going on. The first indication I had that people had been shot came from one of the staff who said that a Guardsman had informed him of this and then the next thing I knew, the head of our maintenance in our building, Lou Johnson, came to me and said that someone was on the second floor, appeared to be a student at least, who had blood on him and was very upset.

At this point I went up to the second floor and–to see if we could do anything for the student.  He was sitting on a chair near our 201 room in the corridor and he evidently had his jacket off and his shirt had bloodstains on it and he was stunned. He had been standing next to or walking with or in–very close to Sandy Scheuer. When he first told me, I thought he had said Sandy Sheer. And he had said that she had gotten hit in the neck. Now from this point on it was an unbelievable experience, understanding the shock that we all went through. I think you can understand how I felt. So I asked him if he wanted to be sent to the health center, if there was anything we could do for him.  We were trying to get a blanket for him. He was coherent though and I didn't know who he was. I had never seen him before.  So, I went to the phone and tried to call the Health Center. I called the Crisis Center and asked if they realized bullets were being shot. Then I called the Health Center to see what we could do for him and realized that they had brought someone else in who had been shot. 

This person evidently had been shot up through the back  of the neck and the bullet coming out near the side of the mouth, but seemed to be in control– I mean his vital organs weren't damaged at that point. I understand he was later taken to St. Thomas in Akron. When I came back out in the hall again, the individual had left with one of our staff because that’s what he’d come over to the Union for in the first place was to see this–one of the students that works for us. 

[Unknown Speaker]: Tom–

[Tom Haenle]: Yeah?

[Unknown Speaker]: Do you know the name of the student?

[Tom Haenle]: Mhm–

[Unknown Speaker]: Do you–

[Tom Haenle]: Oh, who? The student–

[Unknown Speaker]: Of the one who came over with the bloody jacket?

[Tom Haenle]: No. I never heard.

[Unknown Speaker]: Do you know the name of the student who is his friend, or–

[Tom Haenle]: Yeah, yeah, this–I–this is–I told this to the FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation], they asked about it. They found the jacket there somewhere, but her name is Green.

[Unknown Speaker]: [unintelligible]

[Tom Haenle]: Yeah, and you know, we got the information–

[Unknown Speaker]: [unintelligible]

[Tom Haenle]: Now where were we? Again, at this point we were trying to find out exactly what was going on and we were told to try and stay where we were at this point. There was word out–oh yes, by this time I had heard that there was a word out that there might be a sniper. So, I went downstairs again and tried to get people to come in from the back of the building and stay away from the windows and whatnot and not panic in a sense. But they were so stunned I don't know whether they would have panicked or not, I doubt it.  Shortly thereafter the phones all went out of commission.

We were having a difficult time for a short while but we were able to get lines–suddenly of course the lines were loaded up into other areas and then suddenly our phones went out of commission and eventually we got the word to stay in our offices and try and keep people from leaving the building, at least informing them that they would leave at their own risk and this is what took place for the rest of a few hours. I was here until about 4:30 I guess when I finally left. 

By that time our building had been emptied. By that time, I called Glenn Frank, at this time was down in the back of the building making the announcement to leave campus and so forth. Around 4:00 to 4:30 I walked up along the back of the campus–it appeared to be deserted by then–out to our car which was in Bowman Hall and left without any–once I left campus I never the saw the National Guard, the sheriff, the Kent City police, the state police or anyone again. We just drove right out of the city, out towards 43 and out. So, that's the end of it.

[Unknown Speaker]: Now, there seems to be a general–or an impression–maybe it’s not a general impression, but there seems to be an impression that a planning of events took place in the Union. Would you comment on that? Do you have any knowledge of any kind of planning sessions by students or non-students in the Union with reference to activities?

[Tom Haenle]: I am not aware of it. Where would this have taken place–in meetings rooms and whatnot?

[Unknown Speaker]: I think in the Commuters Cafeteria, perhaps, or one of the dining rooms.

[Tom Haenle]: No. When? I am not aware of it. During the day? 

[Unknown Speaker]: Well, at any time prior to these events.

[Tom Haenle]: This is vague. No, it’s so vague, I–it seems to me I did hear about some group had gone into the Commuters Dining Room during the morning hours. By the time I got up to the Commuters Dining–when I got the word–by the time I got to the Commuters Dining Room there was no one there except there was just our normal lunch crowd beginning to develop. I could check this out but I–now I vaguely remember that, yeah, that there was a group and I didn't know who it was. There was no meeting planned. There was no reservation made for it, per se.  Because we would normally use that room, but it’s left open in the morning so that if students want to go in and study, they’ve got room to sit down and–but that’s vague, I would probably be able to find out from people who were closer to it at the time, if you would like, yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]: I think that would be helpful. You have commented on the appearance of unfamiliar faces in the crowd. Would you elaborate on that at all?

[Tom Haenle]: Well, there was a huge crowd of militants built up early Sunday evening out in front of our building and I see a lot of these students day in and day out in our building and recall a lot from last year. Don't know them by name, but know them by sight. Most of the ones I saw out in front of the building, I made comment that night that I didn't recognize a large share of them.

[Unknown Speaker]: In other words, the Union has typically been a center for militant congregating.

[Tom Haenle]: I think it’s a well known fact they congregate primarily in the open lounge there throughout the day, usually around lunch hour.

[Unknown Speaker]: So that over the past year or so you've had a chance to see these people frequently?

[Tom Haenle]: Mhm.

[Unknown Speaker]: Okay. Jeff, do you have any questions?

[Unknown Speaker]: Do you have any information or feelings about things prior to Friday night? Can–do you recall anything that might contribute to anything about Friday night?

[Tom Haenle]: My own personal feeling?

[Unknown Speaker]: Yes or–.

[Tom Haenle]: I was very worried after I heard President Nixon's speech Thursday night because it seemed to me like an issue had been laid in the lands of anyone that wanted to be, you know–to raise issues and rouse students. I felt that this was something most students would–could become radicalized over, because I appreciate their feelings about the whole situation. I think I understand students on this line, but Friday I did go up to the rally. I went up and sat on the hill there, at–in front of Taylor and watched what happened but it didn't appear to be violent at that point.

One student was against tearing up discharge papers. Who he was, I don't know, but to put it in the vernacular he appeared to be on the other side of the fence and was against the idea of it. Maybe also against the idea of burying the constitution, but beyond that I didn't sense any violence at that point. In fact, the words were used, not–should be non-violent, you see. 

[Unknown Speaker]: With reference to strangers on the campus, do you have any impression or did you notice any–did you take notice of non-strangers as early as Friday or before?

[Tom Haenle]: No, the crowd on the hill was fairly spread out and no–I don't think so.  No, they were so compact in front of the Union on Sunday night that it was very, you know, I walked through the crowd a couple, three times, and so it was more obvious to me then and I suppose at that point I was expecting it, too.

[Unknown Speaker]: Could you give us the names of people on your staff who might be helpful in the Commuters Dining Room or other spots that we might contact?

[Tom Haenle]: Yeah. Jerry Young, who was with me most of all that time. And, I think it was Lou Johnson, our head maintenance man, who came to me about the fact that someone was up in the commuters area.  And he would be aware of it, ’cause he usually goes through that area considerably–a considerable amount of times during the day. Possibly John Sibbel–

[Unknown Speaker]: And how do you spell that?

[Tom Haenle]: S I B B E L. He’s away on vacation right now. And maybe Don Bashaw, who was around the building that morning.

[Unknown Speaker]: How would that–

[Tom Haenle]: B A S H A W.  He’s a grad assistant.

[Unknown Speaker]: Do we have anybody from–any of these names from the people working the Commuters– 

[Tom Haenle]: Well of course, Sibbel is over the Food Service and Johnson is over in maintenance. They are in and around through the building. And then they may know others that would be closer to the situation, working in the kitchen there.

[Unknown Speaker]: Do you have any other comments of any kind that you would like to become part of the record?

[Tom Haenle]: Yeah. I wish they would differentiate between super militants or terrorists and overall college students. I get fed up with the indication that every college student is a violent individual. That’s my own personal comment on this and I guess it’s my nature having been at the University of Buffalo for so many years and working with and amongst and around activists up there that I would perceive this situation as one that was planned to some degree, and with many alternatives in terms of different directions to go depending on what the particular issue was at the time, depending on the particular situations. I’m sure there was outside influence just on the basis of not knowing many, you know, not visibly recognizing the majority of them, or at least a significant number. It was the reverse situation, I recognized very few. 

And I have a feeling that the National Guard was part of the violence on that day. Unfortunately I didn't get there until the first tear gas was thrown, so that I don't know only by hearsay how many warnings were given and unfortunately I think part of the problem was that if we were under martial law, and [unintelligible] still don’t know [unintelligible] for sure, I don't think it was well understood, I don't think it was well communicated, it’s a difficult thing to communicate that to so many thousands and I guess students would see the Commons as a ordinary gathering place anyway–it is the only place we have for any type of form action, and when they arrived there the Guard was already there. 

They had been around the ROTC building ever since that Saturday night when they came in on the trucks. But, they were there in greater numbers by Monday, when they gathered.  So, that–this is an aggravating situation. And I think, I would expect it to lead to difficulty, or lead to confrontation, so I think it was a two way situation–a two way street here, that one group provoked the other and–but I can't suggest that it was just provocation by the Guard that aroused this particular group that was on the Commons in particular. It almost appeared that they had violence as part of their plan. These are personal opinions.

[Unknown Speaker]: Thank you very much.

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