Oral History Interview with Carol Kanters by Matthew Crawford

January 3, 2023
Location of Interview: Matthew Crawford's office at Kent State University in Kent, Ohio.

Liquid Crystal Oral History Project
Department of History
Kent State University

Transcript produced by Sharp Copy Transcription

MATTHEW CRAWFORD: My name is Matthew Crawford. I'm a Historian of Science and Associate Professor in the Department of History at Kent State University. Today is January 3rd, 2023, and I am interviewing Carol Kanters. We are conducting this interview in my office in the Department of History at Kent State on the Kent campus. Carol, thanks for agreeing to speak with me today.

CAROL KANTERS: Thank you.

CRAWFORD: I wonder, just to start off, if you could tell us your current title and affiliation?

KANTERS: I am retired, and I haven’t worked in chemistry for 20 years.

CRAWFORD: You said you retired in 2021?

KANTERS: 2021.

CRAWFORD: Let’s start with your childhood. When were you born and where did you grow up?

KANTERS: I was born in 1961 in Canton, Ohio. I’ve lived there for most of my life.

CRAWFORD: What was your early childhood like?

KANTERS: It was a good one. I loved being outside and being active, and I had a curiosity just in everything that we were doing. If there was a problem, we would take care of that and fix things.

CRAWFORD: You said you were curious about things that—?

KANTERS: Right. If things weren’t working the way they should be, or if there was a problem, we would work that out. So I always did things to make it better, made things better.

CRAWFORD: You mean like the family dynamic, or things that broke around the house, or—?

KANTERS: Exactly, exactly. I learned from an early age that if something could be done, and I could do it, then I just did that. Through the years, I would build on that.

CRAWFORD: What was Canton like? Was it a small town, or small city, or—?

KANTERS: It was a medium size. I started out at the Kent State Stark branch there. That was right close to where I lived. That was where I spent the first two years of my college, was there.

CRAWFORD: I wonder if you could tell us about your parents. What were their careers?

KANTERS: My mother was a homemaker, and my father was a mechanic. I think that might be where I got some of my skills to do things myself. Through the years, then—he got cancer when I was a teenager, so he passed away when I just started out at Kent. So I think that I had to do a lot of things on my own, and I did that.

CRAWFORD: What were the names of your mother and father?

KANTERS: My mother was Luella Hanlon and my father was James Hanlon .

CRAWFORD: Did you ever go to the auto shop with your dad or anything like that?

KANTERS: I did. I helped do the body work, on our cars. I had to do a lot of things, that I could do. I would help him a lot. He showed me a lot of things—how to fix my car—and that helped me a lot. I needed that later.

CRAWFORD: [laughs] Did he own the business?

KANTERS: Not that one, but previously he had his own garage. Back then, that’s what they did, in that area.

CRAWFORD: Did you have siblings?

KANTERS: I did. I had a brother and two sisters, and all four of us graduated from Kent, in different fields—geology, nursing, home economics, and me in chemistry. I think that with my father passing, I had this will and determination to just carry on, and be able to do this, myself.

CRAWFORD: What do you mean by “do this”?

KANTERS: Just to start working, and pay for everything myself, and just—it was up to me, now.

CRAWFORD: Were you interested in science as a kid?

KANTERS: Archeology. Growing up, I loved archeology, so I was always out looking for arrowheads. Not science in particular; I loved it and did well in it, though, but that didn’t come until I started taking chemistry classes at the Stark branch.

CRAWFORD: What was it about archeology that attracted you?

KANTERS: That was just being outdoors. My brother is a geologist, so he told me some of the nice places to find things. And I did. Everywhere we went, I would go outside into the cornfield, and look for arrowheads.

CRAWFORD: It sounds like your brother encouraged your interest?

KANTERS: Right, yes.

CRAWFORD: Did anyone else in your family encourage your interest in archeology?

KANTERS: No.

CRAWFORD: What about in high school? Did you take science courses in high school?

KANTERS: I did. College prep, so I took all the science classes. I was a lab assistant there.

CRAWFORD: In high school?

KANTERS: In high school.

CRAWFORD: Oh, wow.

KANTERS: Yeah. But it didn’t determine my future in chemistry. It really didn’t. But I think maybe that helped to get that interest going.

CRAWFORD: What high school did you go to?

KANTERS: Jackson High School, in Massillon.

CRAWFORD: You said you were a lab assistant?

KANTERS: Right, I was a lab assistant in physics, so I graded papers, set up some of the labs. I think a hands-on experience, I was used to that. I loved it.

CRAWFORD: How did you get that opportunity to be a lab assistant?

KANTERS: That’s a really good question. I think it was more when I was in the physics class, the professor—I don’t know if they can see in students a level of trust? You’re grading papers and things. It was just confidence, and you were exact in what you did. I think that had a lot to do with who they chose as assistants.

CRAWFORD: That makes sense. When did you graduate from high school?

KANTERS: 1979.

CRAWFORD: Did you go straight to college after that?

KANTERS: Right. I started at Kent Stark in 1979, and I played volleyball for two years. I did get Kent Stark’s first scholarship in volleyball—

CRAWFORD: Really!

KANTERS: —right, in 1980. There’s many more now, but at the time, that was—I needed—my father was in the hospital, so that came in handy. I didn’t realize at the time that this was amazing. So I did go there for two years, volleyball two years. It was right after he passed away, and I started to work in the office down in the main hall there at Kent Stark. A guy came down, and he asked if I could work in the chemistry lab. Of course, this was my second year. I thought, “Well, no, I’m taking chemistry now, but I don’t even—I don’t have that—” To work in the lab, it was kind of scary at the time. And I said, “Yes!”

CRAWFORD: Why?

KANTERS: He was leaving, and he said, “They need somebody right now. [Mr.] Smith up there needs somebody in the lab right now.” So I went up. I’m not an office person, to sit behind a desk, so that was probably why I said, “Yes.” I had a couple days there, and that got me out of that chair. So I went up there, and I started to work in the lab as a lab assistant up in the Chemistry Department. There, the will and determination, just knowing that I could do this, I think that was something for myself. I wanted to do this. Not knowing that at the time, but I knew that I could. I did spend a whole year doing that. Over the summer, just by myself. Which, I loved that. I always loved being by myself. I prepared the labs and did everything, even while the labs were going on, throughout the semesters. It was about a year that I was there, doing that, until through the following summer, before I would come up here to the main campus.

CRAWFORD: I have a couple of follow-up questions on what you said. First of all, I want to ask you about volleyball. How long had you been playing volleyball?

KANTERS: Three years in high school, and two years in college, so five years.

CRAWFORD: How serious was your interest in that? Did you ever consider a career in that?

KANTERS: I just loved it. I loved sports and athletics. Not a career. Actually archeology, I thought of as a career. But I needed to make the money, so I—not volleyball. I was on varsity for all that, one of the main players, but I couldn't pay the bills doing that. So I didn’t play in main campus.

CRAWFORD: Why not?

KANTERS: Once I got into the chemistry down there at the Stark branch—we traveled a lot. It was a lot to try to keep my grades up. As I got up here to main campus, I knew I wouldn't play if I’m going to stay in chemistry. I didn’t really know it at the time, that I would stay in chemistry, but I really started to love that. Mr. Smith, actually at Kent Stark, sent my name up here, to Kent, since I was going to be coming up in the fall for my third year, to the stock room over here in the Chemistry Department. I worked in the stock room for a year, preparing labs. I’m an organizational person, and I kept everything organized, and Mary could attest to that. Very organized.

CRAWFORD: Your time as a lab assistant at Stark, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about what—you said that you prepared labs.

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: Can you tell us what that involved?

KANTERS: That was general chemistry labs. We didn’t have the upper division courses like we have here, so I did the undergrad. Then some of the nursing students were taking chemistry, so mostly general chemistry. And there was some chemistry for students that were not going into chemistry; they just needed it as a background, so there were some lower-level classes. I prepared the reagents, and stocked up everything, organized the stock room. That was my thing, was organizing the stock room. Super organizing. I didn’t really one-on-one with the students—they were to ask the professors—but I did help a few people that had some trouble, and I could answer their questions. With the year that I was there, I learned a lot. I learned a lot, about the things that I liked and wanted to maybe keep doing.

CRAWFORD: What were some of the things you think you learned from that experience?

KANTERS: I loved the technical skills that I was learning, and mixing, a lot of the math that was involved. At the time, I think I was thinking of majoring in math. So you kind of think about that, and it’s not going to involve so much lab work and hands-on skills with my hands. And I was really pretty good at that, creative with being able to fix things, and put the right combinations together to do it right, the right way.

CRAWFORD: In addition to the hands-on and maybe your affinity for math, was there anything else that attracted you to chemistry in particular?

KANTERS: I think that right there, in that Kent Stark lab, I was learning to do so many things. I really liked that atmosphere, I think it was. And being able to just put things together, and the equipment, was so interesting. I really didn’t think about math so much, then, and what I would do that way, with math. I would find out later physics is a little bit different. I didn’t really like that. And I wasn’t really into the medical part of science. That lab there was kind of a turning point for me, I would say.

CRAWFORD: I also wanted to ask, why Kent State Stark? Why did you decide to go there, as opposed to somewhere else?

KANTERS: Definitely close to home, which coming up here, I commuted for four years, another year after that. I wanted to be close to home. I think it was more because of my father passing away, and I kind of needed—there was a lot to do at home. I still had a younger sister. It was trying to keep things going normally, for our family. That kept me closer to home, and not so much any other university. Kent Stark was always—where my brother went, where my siblings started. That was kind of what we did.

CRAWFORD: Did anyone else in your family go there?

KANTERS: Just the four of us siblings. All four of us did, started there, because it was close. I could ride my bike over there. Or ran. For practice for volleyball, I would run over.

CRAWFORD: Oh, really!

KANTERS: And then run back! Did a lot of running.

CRAWFORD: That’s probably good exercise!

KANTERS: Not so; I found that out later. You find out later—it’s not good.

CRAWFORD: [laughs] Right. You weren’t majoring in chemistry at the time that you started at the lab at Stark?

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: Then did you switch to chemistry as a major after you started working in the lab?

KANTERS: I started out in business administration, but that was because I didn’t have a major. It was just business classes. But it didn’t take long. After the second year, I started chemistry. I knew it wasn’t going to be business. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: Why is that?

KANTERS: I am not an inside desk person. That’s how we said it back then—“inside desk”—just a person that is going to sit at a desk.

CRAWFORD: How would you describe doing chemistry different than sitting at a desk?

KANTERS: In a lab. I always thought a lab technician is my thing. But as I found out later, the chemistry gets harder.

CRAWFORD: [laughs]

KANTERS: Much harder. [laughs] So I relied on my skills to get me through those harder physical chemistry and physics. I relied on my lab skills to allow me to do what I wanted to do, even with some of the classes that I struggled with.

CRAWFORD: What are the kind of skills that you need to work in a lab?

KANTERS: I would say you need to be energetic physically, mentally. Because all the conditions are constantly changing, and there are some hazardous—you have to be aware of the dangers. If you're not alert or vigilant with that, it could be bad for those around you. I found myself that way in my upper division classes, labs—people that weren’t vigilant, and they were actually dangerous to work around, and I became almost a safety person at that point. I took care of the MSDS sheets and all the safety sheets. It became part of the lab—safety—and that really was perfect.

CRAWFORD: What is MSDS?

KANTERS: Material Safety Data Sheet.

CRAWFORD: What is that?

KANTERS: Every chemical in any building, whether it’s in a safety container or a cabinet, has to have a sheet on the dangers, and what it can’t be exposed to. Even peroxide or ammonia, there’s an MSDS sheet. That was becoming very important, and I was taking care of that. When I worked in the other year over here, that was my job.

CRAWFORD: You're saying that was becoming important.

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: Are you saying when you started out working in chemistry, there wasn’t as much attention to—?

KANTERS: No. No attention to the acids. I might get a sheet in with the chemicals. Because I ordered all the chemicals, and I would get a sheet in there, an MSDS sheet, and it was kind of just—put in the drawer. It wasn’t really important. But after 1985, it had to be in a book, filed, alphabetical order, and the book was growing. And I put the book together.

CRAWFORD: Why 1985? Do you have a sense of why this started to change?

KANTERS: Before that, I did not notice safety being a big, important thing, or I would have known about it. It wasn’t part of it. Right around 1985, 1986, you had to. It was mandatory that you put that sheet in there. All the sheets prior to that were just—you could throw them away.

CRAWFORD: Was there something that happened around that time that made people realize, “Hey, chemicals are more dangerous” or—?

KANTERS: Yes. Yes. With the chemical and the chemicals that we would collect in jugs to get rid of, and a man would come and pick that up, that, we just really didn’t take that—I just took it over to the Chemistry Department in my car.

CRAWFORD: [laughs]

KANTERS: It wasn’t labeled; you just poured your remaining into this jug, in any of my labs. Right around that time, it became that all of a sudden you couldn't do that. So, 1986, when I came back, you couldn't just put that in the jug and let the fume hood take the vapors and get rid of that. It had to be sealed, labeled, how much is in there. I know that’s because of the beginnings of the safety and not having any accidents, and people getting sick, not knowing why, was becoming more—everyone was starting to become aware of that.

CRAWFORD: So just a general more awareness—

KANTERS: Right!

CRAWFORD: —of safety in the lab, safety around chemicals and so forth?

KANTERS: Yes. Right about that time. And it changed the way I did things.

CRAWFORD: We were talking about skills in the lab, and you mentioned this vigilance or awareness of the materials that you're working with. It sounds like you were also maybe suggesting it’s somewhat physically demanding. Are there other skills involved as well, in terms of certain skills that you need in order to successfully execute an experiment or reactions or things like that?

KANTERS: Right. Physical—you're on your feet a lot. You're moving around people. You're helping other people. I would be exhausted by the end of those days. It’s the type of thing that I like, though, because coming out of athletics, I felt like I could still move around, get exercise. I felt good. And you had people coming to you for help, and it was just a good feeling of helping other people, and being able to, for me. I was getting to the point where I could help other people. Even some of the upper—there were a few doctors that would come in and ask me a certain way to do something, and it felt good. I just took it as just a general—“Yeah, I do this, this way.” It was a good feeling, to keep me going. So, the physical part, yeah, there’s a lot of that, as far as the Lincoln Building. They had no elevator, so—that comes later. But it was all physically taking gas tanks—

CRAWFORD: You liked the moving around—

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: —which is very different than working at a desk.

KANTERS: Very different.

CRAWFORD: You're standing up. You're moving around. It sounds like you liked the social interaction as well—helping other people, consulting with people, things like that.

KANTERS: Right. Because I could. At that point.

CRAWFORD: I wonder if we could talk a little bit about your educational experience. What was the science curriculum like at Kent State in chemistry? What kind of courses were you taking?

KANTERS: The first two years for everyone was mostly general classes. You're taking things that may look interesting, which was chemistry. I took that. What you take is kind of how you find out what you like and you don’t like. When I came to Kent main campus, I had organic chemistry, which I wasn’t very good at, and I didn’t know if I liked that. Of course it was coming off of just my family, and losing my father, and it was an adjustment. But at the time I took organic chemistry that third year, I did not know that I liked that. In fact, I would probably say that I didn’t, at the time.

CRAWFORD: Why was that?

KANTERS: It was very hard. It was different than general chemistry, just a different way, a different chemistry, completely.

CRAWFORD: What makes it so difficult, though?

KANTERS: You're comparing inorganic chemistry and organic chemistry, and coming off of inorganic chemistry, it’s just—it’s more visual. There’s a lot of, I would say, orientation physically, just chemical molecules. And orientation—and I have a little bit of visual—it’s hard for me to see that unless I have a model in front of me. I know that that was why it was hard for me, was visualizing the molecules that we had to learn and know. So, I didn’t know at the time that I liked that! [laughs]

CRAWFORD: You started out with some intro to chemistry type courses, and then organic chemistry is the more—

KANTERS: Upper division.

CRAWFORD: —upper division-type work. Were there other types of chemistry that they were introducing you to, at that point, as well?

KANTERS: That was kind of where the bachelor of science and the bachelor of arts would branch off. If you had taken the bachelor of arts and gone the easy way, those classes are easier. The bachelor of science was very hard, and the professors were all different. That was right around—upper division inorganic—but organic chemistry was necessary to move on in that field, before you start taking classes that kind of—industry chemistry, industrial chemistry. I had that. You had to take organic chemistry first.

CRAWFORD: Did you earn a BS in Chemistry?

KANTERS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: You decided to take the harder courses.

KANTERS: It was that will and determination, and it was strong [laughs]. Because I could have gone the other direction, easily. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: I know you worked as a laboratory assistant, and I know we'll talk more about that, but I’m just curious, as a student, did you have opportunities to participate in or conduct research, as an undergraduate? Did you do research projects? Did you help faculty out with their research at all?

KANTERS: I did not, at that point, in the stock room. I made a little extra money—one professor needed his big—our big books that we had, the [CRC] books in chemistry—I forget what they're called—the Chemistry Bible, I guess I want to say—I labeled that for him, and he gave me I think 20 bucks or something. So, I did little things. But all the research was for upper division, and I was not at that point yet, for that. In the stock room, though, I supplied everybody with all of their equipment and things, and I set up everything for the labs. I worked under another person that ran—second floor, first floor—I worked under another person that was full time. But as a student, 20 hours a week, I still mixed up all the reagents in the stock room, and learned a lot about the chemicals and the dangers of some of them, in the chemistry stock room over here. That gave me a little more background on chemicals, and it was interesting.

CRAWFORD: Were there any professors or other individuals that had a significant influence on your undergraduate career?

KANTERS: Dr. Fishel. Derry Fishel. I had him for organic chemistry. Being in the stock room, I could see a lot of people. But I was having trouble in organic chemistry, so I talked to him about—I took it a second time, and I talked to him about possibly doing that on my own, since it is only offered in the fall. In the spring, I actually did an individual class with him. Once a week I would go in with my questions. I got through that first part, again, by myself, with him. That’s when he asked if I wanted to be a phlebotomist with his wife, which she owned a medical company that was very—Canton, Stow—she had a big medical business. I was a phlebotomist for his wife for a summer, while I also worked in the stock room in the summer.

CRAWFORD: Really!

KANTERS: I needed to make the money, just to pay for everything. At that point, I did not want to go into medical studies.

CRAWFORD: Were you considering it?

KANTERS: Not really, but doing that, being a phlebotomist, I just—I did not want to work with that. I didn’t like the medical part, in chemistry.

CRAWFORD: Why was that?

KANTERS: Being in a lab, in phlebotomy, you draw blood from people. Every morning, we would go draw blood from maybe 20 people in different places, and then take it to the lab. I thought, “This is lab work. It might be kind of nice to get in there, and spin the samples.” After watching them, what they had to do, I didn’t like the viruses and the germs, and I didn’t want to do that. So that’s where I learned about what I didn’t want to do.

CRAWFORD: [laughs] You liked the lab work of chemistry, but you didn’t want to work with basically—

KANTERS: Blood.

CRAWFORD: —biological materials.

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: Blood and stuff like that.

KANTERS: Right. And chemistry is part of that. It’s all chemistry. So I kind of moved away from that. So, I’m still in the stock room at this time, and a girl comes over to the window. Broken equipment or whatever you need, I was the person. There was a time I was the only one working. A lot of times, I’m the only one working, and we need help. This girl asked me if I would be interested in working at the Liquid Crystal Institute. And I have never even heard about that in my entire life. I didn’t know what it was.

CRAWFORD: Wow.

KANTERS: No. Did not know what it was. Never heard about it. I don’t know why she asked me. She was alone at the time. There’s always two assistants down there, so she needed help, just like when I needed help, I asked the class if anybody could help me down there, and we needed a second person. So she asked me, and gave me Dr. Neubert—Mary’s—number, to go down and see her.

CRAWFORD: Who was the person that asked you? Do you remember their name?

KANTERS: It was Cindy Colby.

CRAWFORD: So you were working in the stock room, in the Chemistry Department.

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: What building was that in?

KANTERS: That was Williams Hall, second floor. And then first floor. Both floors. I worked on both floors at different times, whenever they needed help—I think it was in the afternoon at times—and then I worked downstairs. So I really got a general idea of all the chemistry classes, the nursing classes and what they needed. There was a lot of reagents to mix up, and a lot of unknown tubes, hundreds of unknowns. I made up test tubes with hundreds of unknowns.

CRAWFORD: What do you mean by that, that you made up test tubes with hundreds of unknowns?

KANTERS: Each class, they get an unknown. Each student gets an unknown, and they do the experiments to find out what that unknown is.

CRAWFORD: Oh, okay. So you would make some kind of substance or whatever—

KANTERS: Right, a solution or a substance in the test tube, and they—it’s white, like salt, and they had to do reactions to figure out what those tubes were, what it was, and you get a grade based on what it is. So, I—thousands. I made thousands of those. Yeah.

CRAWFORD: [laughs] Did they tell you what unknowns to put in, or did you get to decide?

KANTERS: Yes. I had a book.

CRAWFORD: Obviously the professor has to know.

KANTERS: Right, it was a book of what numbers had to be what.

CRAWFORD: I see.

KANTERS: So I had to keep all that straight. I am kind of a perfectionist with that. I knew exactly, and I never doubted myself when it comes to what I put in there. It’s their grade.

CRAWFORD: Yeah, because if you put the wrong thing in there, then it could be—

KANTERS: And I knew that. I could—do anything. But they knew that I would do that right. So I had a lot to do, and more all the time. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: [laughs] The medical company that Dr. Fishel’s wife ran, do you remember the name of that company?

KANTERS: I do not. I’ll look that up, it might still be there. Oh my gosh.

CRAWFORD: At this time, when you've moved to the Kent campus—that’s in 1982, roughly?

KANTERS: I was a commuter.

CRAWFORD: But you're a full-time student at the Kent campus—

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: —working in the stock room in the Chemistry Department. Are you starting to think that you might want to pursue a career in science?

KANTERS: Yes. It was becoming a reality for me, really.

CRAWFORD: What kind of career were you thinking at that time? What did you see yourself doing?

KANTERS: I actually did see myself doing some kind of lab work. It just seemed so easy for me. I’m actually not sure where—I guess it all started back when I was helping my father with body work; I just had a way that I could fix things, to make it work, and it looked good. Confidence was building in this. I may not have completely known it at the time, but I was getting confidence, in myself.

CRAWFORD: Did you ever consider going on to graduate school? Did you ever consider getting a master’s or a PhD degree?

KANTERS: I did not, at the time. I know my work that I did down at the Institute could have been a master’s, but I really wasn’t after that. I really was a technician, really, in all senses of the term. I was a lab technician. I really just wanted to be that, and nothing more.

CRAWFORD: Were there any other interests during your undergraduate career that competed with your interest in science? Or once you found chemistry, that was it?

KANTERS: Yes. Well, it has always been archeology. I’ve always loved that. But that became just an interest, then, and kind of a fun thing to do, not something I wanted to do forever. But interests are good to have, in addition to what you're doing.

CRAWFORD: Why didn’t you see archeology as a career option?

KANTERS: It just didn’t make sense that something fun would be something I’m going to be able to make a career out of, really? It just wasn’t; I don’t know. It was something I just kind of pushed to the side, and it was fun. But I did a lot with that, for fun.

CRAWFORD: Women are known to be underrepresented in the sciences today. I suspect it was a similar situation in the 1980s.

KANTERS: Right, right.

CRAWFORD: I wanted to ask you, what was it like as a woman majoring in chemistry in the 1980s, as a student?

KANTERS: Right. With everything that you're doing, and you’re busy, you're working, I didn’t have any trouble as far as the people around me and helping them. There were no roadblocks. Nobody treated me that way, at all. I never found that, at all, to be an issue, even though in my classes, there were only a couple of us. But I was one of the same as everybody, and nobody treated me any differently. So as I went around and I needed something or needed this, it was just, that was fine. I guess myself, though, looking around, I felt a little intimidated, but not in the sense that it would stop me. As far as being female in the group, they definitely did not treat me any less, at all. So it was getting past my intimidation, that “Why am I thinking that way?” [laughs] It just wasn’t like that.

CRAWFORD: So you didn’t feel like male students were given different opportunities or more opportunities?

KANTERS: Definitely not. Because I was coming right out of a branch campus, coming here, and I was moving right along. There wasn’t anything stopping me. I always worked around the other guys. They were always there. But they always treated me the same. As far as physical or lifting things that are heavy, they didn’t say, “Here, let me get that.” It wasn’t really like that. Because if you're going to do this—if it was bad you'd ask for help, but I could do mostly the same. There were times we did need help, but there might be two of us, two ladies working together. It was never an issue.

CRAWFORD: Was there a competitive environment among the students, or was there a sense that you were all working together?

KANTERS: Yes. I wouldn't say it was real competitive. I think for each individual, pursuing what they were after, it might have been competitive to be able to do that and do well. But as far as one person over another, we weren’t against each other. We were always helping each other.

CRAWFORD: What about the professors that you had, the teachers that you had? How many of them were women, at the time?

KANTERS: One? I think just one.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember her name?

KANTERS: For physical chemistry. T-S-A-I ? Tsai [Tuan] ? I’ll have to look again. She was a physical chemist. That would be a guess, but her name—if I saw her name, I would know. Tsai [Tuan] ? She’s the only one.[1]

CRAWFORD: The rest of the professors for your classes were all male professors?

KANTERS: All male, right.

CRAWFORD: Now, it sounds like from what you said that you really felt like being a lab technician was where your skill and interest lay. Do you think that having mostly male professors had an impact on your ability to imagine becoming a chemistry professor? Or was it really just that being a lab technician seemed—?

KANTERS: I’d have to be honest and say it slightly did affect my—not that I couldn't be who they were, or what they were doing, but always having your male professors, you did have a tiny sense of that—that you're going to be dealing with this, as you go forward. It didn’t stop me, so that’s not a problem, but it kind of made you think that—yeah, you are going to be—I won’t say working harder, but you're going against kind of the norm that you're in right now. You’re a little bit on the side, going through. They never made you feel that way, but in class, they were always there, and you got used to that. But I’d have to say there would be just a tad bit of that, maybe—what’s the word for that?— you know, I only had one female professor. And I didn’t do well in that class, at all, so maybe [laughs] that’s why!

CRAWFORD: [laughs]

KANTERS: So, I’m better off! [laughs] I did better! [laughs] I can’t explain that. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: Sure, sure. You mentioned that you were approached by Cindy Colby to join the stock room at the Liquid Crystal Institute, and before that, you had not heard of the Liquid Crystal Institute at all.

KANTERS: Didn’t even know. I thought it was a glass factory, or I—had no idea.

CRAWFORD: Really!

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: [laughs]

KANTERS: Had no idea. When I went down there to talk to her, I still didn’t know. So much for being prepared for what you're going to be doing in the next couple of years. I had no idea. There wasn’t a whole lot—you didn’t hear about it! [laughs]

CRAWFORD: [laughs]

KANTERS: I loved being in the stock room and working over there, so I had to kind of think about that—being in my comfortable zone, there, and knowing what I’m doing. At that point, I’m in my third year, so I am probably nowhere near graduating in another year! [laughs] I’m still in my third year, and it took me—at 20 hours a week, and working, and classes. I dropped to part-time. It allowed me to work. I needed to work, too. She gave me a piece of paper with the number and who to talk to. I didn’t know anybody, outside of that building. So, I did. I went down there. I didn’t know the building or anything.

CRAWFORD: This was the Lincoln Building, down on Lincoln Street?

KANTERS: The Lincoln Building. Yeah, the old Lincoln Building. I wasn’t sure—“Really?” It looked like an apartment. I didn’t know I was even at the right place. Oh my gosh. I went down and I talked to Dr. Neubert, Mary. I talked to her. We didn’t know each other.

CRAWFORD: What was that like, that first conversation you had with her?

KANTERS: It was kind of dry. It was mostly what I’m taking in school. I didn’t tell her that “I’m not doing very well in organic chemistry.” I didn’t know it was organic chemistry down there. She told me she would give me an opportunity to work. They needed somebody, and somebody came to her that was interested, so that was kind of my foot in the door. I said, “Okay, I’ll try that.” But at the time, I didn’t want to leave there, in the stock room. I had to make that decision, though, because I couldn't do both. You can’t have two university jobs. So I decided to go and do that. Really it’s one of those steps where you just do it. I guess she trusted enough in me, and I trusted myself, to be able to stay there and make money, or go back.

CRAWFORD: I’m curious why you made that decision. Because you mentioned that you're not doing well in organic chemistry; you were happy working in the stock room for the Department of Chemistry. Why make that change?

KANTERS: That’s a very good question. I really didn’t want to leave my comfort zone over there. She took me to the lab, and it was just another lab, something I love. And I would have my own lab. When she started to show me things—third floor, at the Lincoln Building; I would have my own lab, right there, to myself—that probably sealed the deal right there. Being by myself. I love that part, too. For the most part, I always was by myself, doing things. That was a turning point to be able to have another lab, of my own.

CRAWFORD: What does it mean to have your own lab? What does the lab look like? What’s in it? What’s there?

KANTERS: Space that just—like somebody would consider their office their own. Here I am on campus. I really never had my own space of any kind. I didn’t live there. So it was this cold, noisy, air hoods for chemicals. There were two big hoods. You couldn't really hear very well in there, and just cold air blowing everywhere. And, just not a lot of chemicals, because you had to go get those. You had your sink, and you had your gas—your air tanks. You had a couple of those in there. And your own desk! That was like gold, to me, to have my own desk. Two big windows, where I could see outside, and feel like I’m outside. And there was nobody around. With this lab, it was mine. I couldn't turn that down. I didn’t. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: Was it its own room?

KANTERS: It was a room, with a door. Since the building that it was in—they were labs instead of rooms. There were a few offices on one side. The labs were on the ends, for the most part. There were a couple that weren’t used, in the middle. So, you had a lab, in a building that didn’t really look like that. Just a lot of vents on the top, and you could tell it was something different. It was just an atmosphere that you would—it was really a different atmosphere for me.

CRAWFORD: What made it different? Just being on your own, having your own space?

KANTERS: Yeah. On the other side of campus, clear over there, away from everybody. And it’s a lab. Like the chemicals, we had to get those. They weren’t just there. We had to bring them over. So there wasn’t a lot of that. But the deliveries were made there for the air or gas tanks, and the five gallons of chemicals were delivered there, obviously, because—you know. But all that had to be taken to the third floor with no elevator.

CRAWFORD: Oh my gosh. [laughs]

KANTERS: [laughs] Cindy here, she showed me how we both have to take the tanks upstairs on a dolly, and chloroform is heavier than me, and they're super—five gallons of that. It takes two people. Well, I found out later, when you're by yourself, you have to carry that yourself. And I did. The tanks—there wasn’t anybody around. It was just me, for a while! People would graduate, and then it’s just you, by yourself, until I had another person help me. At that point, I liked it, a lot, more and more. Mary trusted me, and she gave me the work, and what I had to do. She kind of liked the fact that you are doing what she tells you, without rebelling or complaining against what you're doing. You get it done. My work was pure. I made everything super pure, so requests, they knew what they would be getting. She knew that, too, which was a big thing.

CRAWFORD: In your lab, you are what, preparing solutions, synthesizing things?

KANTERS: Yeah. Synthesizing liquid crystals. I’m finding out—I learned as I went—I’m finding out what they are. I had no idea what those were. I’m sure Mary knew that too, but she gave me the chance, so I could show myself, and build my own confidence in myself. As I realize this, I’m getting better in my classes, my chemistry. I’m getting much better in that, grade-wise, understanding. Without that step, I probably wouldn't have been able to go on in my classes. Because it all made sense. When you're putting together—you did the math to figure out what you needed to add. Then a lot of it is the glassware. We needed some specialized glassware for a lot of that work. You had a torch, and you had vacuum. The departments now have all that—you turn a knob, and you have vacuum, or you have air. Well, we had to produce our own air, and vacuum, with water pressure in the hood. That was never easy over there. You had to do that manually. The air—with the tanks. I learned a lot of just safety around those gas tanks and how to turn them on and off, and hydrogen. That was my favorite experiment, was working with hydrogen, in one of my experiments. It was an apparatus that not a lot of people wanted to use, because you're using hydrogen. It was dangerous, to say the least, I guess. It would run overnight, which always made me nervous. This was something I never thought I was going to be doing, here, but Mary gave me this opportunity. You can’t just walk away, and I never walked away from any of that. But the confidence that you build, and she helped you with that, and the determination, and purity, and you starting to learn about all that, it was, “This is a direction that I’m going to be going in.” I loved that.

CRAWFORD: You mentioned your favorite experiment, with hydrogen. What was that experiment, and why did you like it so much?

KANTERS: That was a Parr apparatus I used.

CRAWFORD: Can you explain what a Parr apparatus is?

KANTERS: It was an apparatus that kind of covered half the room, from my recollection. It was laid out on our desk—well, the lab table there. It involved hydrogen gas. My solution was in a bottle. It had to have like a catalyst in there, to make it happen, with hydrogen. So, adding, putting a lid. It’s actually under pressure, hydrogen pressure, and the experiment is sealed. It actually was shaking overnight. It usually had to run like ten hours or whatever. The hydrogen was feeding into it to, with the catalyst, break down this solution, to form another compound that actually was needed by Dr. Dave Johnson.

CRAWFORD: Were you making liquid crystal compounds, or something else?

KANTERS: It was a compound to make the liquid crystals. I made big batches. I was a good—I made big batches of things, pure, that were needed to make the liquid crystals. So it was a—what do I want to say?—the two things—some of the terminology—so it was a product—not an actual liquid crystal, but it was used to make that.

CRAWFORD: I see.

KANTERS: Sometimes it went to other countries, too. I had to make and send things. It was very pure, and I know Mary knew that it was. I was really good at purifying things, and I loved it. So I made a lot of it. That was one of them. It was a little bit scary. I had to make sure that I knew what I was doing. I didn’t want to have any interruptions, and we all know what that’s like. That was something that I was super careful, but I actually did start a small fire when I was working with that, just by tapping on the glass. it ignited. So I was super careful about that. That was the safety part coming in. I was starting to get a little bit hyper about that. But that was my favorite experiment.

CRAWFORD: Why do you think you were so good at producing pure results, pure chemical solutions?

KANTERS: I think that in class, if I—I had to be good at—I’m not perfect in class, but if I could do that here, that was my chance to show everyone that I could do this, and it was super pure. It’s kind of like being a perfectionist, or just kind of making—what do I want to say?—determination to—it was my thing, really.

CRAWFORD: You mentioned that you hadn’t heard of liquid crystals when you came to the LCI, and the Lincoln Building, and you had to learn about them as you were doing it.

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: How did you learn about them?

KANTERS: I got to make them. I had the list of reactions to make, that Mary needed, and I actually started to understand what they were, and how they were put together, because I was making some of the products to add, and make a liquid crystal. And, it looked exactly the same as anything else. It didn’t even look like a liquid crystal. It was a slow process of me learning about that. But she allowed you the chance to look in a microscope at one, that you made. Actually, we had to. In our experiment, our reports, we had to look on the microscope and make sure that the liquid crystal we made, I want to say the phases—that was the hardest for me, was the microscope work—but we had to go in there and check the phases of the liquid crystal. I did that, and that was a learning thing for me. Then you got to see what you made.

CRAWFORD: Right. Was that how you identified the liquid crystal, was through looking at the different phases? You're looking at it under a microscope with like a heating element?

KANTERS: Right, right. It had the phases. That actually didn’t determine the liquid crystal. You had some other tests that you would run. That would just determine the phases, when you were looking at the microscope.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember the other tests you did to determine—?

KANTERS: Yes. I ran the NMR, which is nuclear magnetic resonance, over in the Chemistry Department, since a lot of the equipment was over there, and I was actually quite good at that, too. That determined that you had a liquid crystal or whatever you were making. That was one of the instruments you would run to confirm.

CRAWFORD: For someone who doesn't know NMR, what information does it give you about the substance that tells you it’s a liquid crystal?

KANTERS: That actually tells you what you have—the molecule that you have, that you say you have. It will run this scan, and each molecule has its own characteristics, I should say. Hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, they all have their characteristics, and when they're together, they do different things. The NMR would show you what you had made, how pure it was. It would show impurities. To run that, you had to take a lesson and take a test, and not everybody was allowed to run that, up in the third floor Chemistry Department. That might be the only area where I came across somebody that was coming in there running instruments. The research assistants over there were running other instruments in there. I stayed out of their way, but that would be the only time, and maybe the only place, where they let you do your thing, but if they were there first, or they wanted to run something, you needed to get off of there. You left room for them. You respected that, though. And they respected us. But I knew that I wasn’t able to do what they were doing, I guess I want to say. I just respected them, and they're farther along than I am. A lot of them were postdocs, too. I loved that instrument.

CRAWFORD: Can you walk us through using the NMR? What does that machine look like? What output does it give you? Are you putting a test tube into the machine? Can you just walk us through that process?

KANTERS: That’s perfect. Yes, that’s almost like when you go to the hospital and you get a scan, the magnetic—

CRAWFORD: An MRI?

KANTERS: MRI, thank you. It’s like an MRI. So it’s magnetic, big magnets. Huge magnets. Your sample is just a little test tube, a tiny, thin test tube. Very tiny, in a little solution. So it’s just a very little, maybe an inch—and it goes in the top part of these magnets. The sample holder, by the way, was always broken, because if you dropped it in there, it was down for a month. So we were always waiting. But it wasn’t one of us! Because Mary didn’t want to hear one of us doing that. It was never one of us. It was always the grad students, that would drop it in, and it would shatter in there, and it was just down for a month.

CRAWFORD: Why?

KANTERS: To repair. The technicians had to come in. I have to say it was never one of us, because we knew we could not do that.

CRAWFORD: So people would drop the sample holder or the test tube?

KANTERS: The test tube had kind of a little rubber ring on it, so you knew it wouldn't go any farther in than that. If you pulled the rubber ring up too high, it dropped too low in the NMR and broke.

CRAWFORD: So you would have glass and—?

KANTERS: It was just a lid, so it was all—a magnet—you wouldn't be able to see it. When it goes in, it disappears. So it was kind of scary, and with the test we took, we knew exactly what we had to do. They were allowing us to use that, in Chemistry, so that was a nice feature that they let us use that. Other than that, we had our own instruments down at the Institute.

CRAWFORD: So, you put the sample in the NMR.

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: And then you do what? Turn on the magnets or something?

KANTERS: Yes. You shut the lid, and there’s a control panel, and you start the spin. It spins—I don’t know how many revolutions it spins—so the sample can be read.

CRAWFORD: So the magnets are spinning around the sample?

KANTERS: Actually, I think the sample is spinning. I’m trying to—it was loud, so I’m not quite sure exactly—maybe both.

CRAWFORD: Were you in the same room with the machine?

KANTERS: Oh, yes.

CRAWFORD: So it’s not like an x-ray machine where nowadays the technician stands outside?

KANTERS: No, you could just sit that—right. The magnets, it might have—that, you didn’t see it moving, but inside, I do believe that that was moving, because it was loud.

CRAWFORD: How big would you say the machine is?

KANTERS: As big as your desk, a big wooden desk.

CRAWFORD: This desk is probably about five feet wide.

KANTERS: Yes, yes. By three, four—

CRAWFORD: Three feet wide, five feet long, roughly.

KANTERS: Definitely, yes. Same height. Then the control panel next to it with the graph. It was paper. No digital; it was all paper.

CRAWFORD: The output was a paper graph?

KANTERS: Right, with the ink pen. The old style, with the ink coming through, and you had your own ink pen. We kept our own. We just had to take that with us, because up there, you didn’t know if you were going to find it, or it was just—you know. So Mary always made sure we had our own tubes for the sample. Running the sample was kind of a job in itself to get it exactly, and start at zero, and run it. But some of the graphs are in the publications there. I ran a lot of those, so—

CRAWFORD: You gave me these progress reports that you did.

KANTERS: Right. The graphs are—the publications show them. They might be in here, but I don’t think they're in that, but they're in the publications, yeah.

CRAWFORD: In the publications, the graphs are what came out of the NMR?

KANTERS: Right. It’s one that looks like mountain peaks that go up in the air?

CRAWFORD: Like this?

KANTERS: That’s it. Exactly. Yes. That’s exactly it.

CRAWFORD: We're looking at page 229 of this article from Molecular—

KANTERS: Crystals? Liquid Crystals?

CRAWFORD: —Crystals and Liquid Crystals , 1986, Volume 133, page 229. This is a graph that comes out of the NMR. Can you walk me through this graph?

[Refers to video, see video]

KANTERS: Zero—the graph kind of goes right to left. So, zero, there was a chemical that would always show up at zero. If it wasn’t, you had to keep trying it so that that would show up at zero, so that everything else to the left would be in the exact position that you knew what that was. If it wasn’t on zero, the other graphs weren’t right. Each peak would show you the hydrogens—this is measuring the hydrogens—in a molecule. All of the H’s are showing up at different places along this graph, according to where it is in this molecule. We knew each one, and what that was, and where it showed up on that graph.

CRAWFORD: This particular graph is telling you where the hydrogens are. Do you do a separate scan for carbons, and things like that, or is it just hydrogens?

KANTERS: Just hydrogens for this one. And if you had an impurity, it would show up in here, and you would know that you had something in there that shouldn't be in there. The straighter your peaks are, and the more clear the peaks are, the more pure. I have had some that are just kind of rounded mounds, I would say; those are very unpure. The more distinctive the peaks, the better the molecule. Actually, there’s another one that does carbon; this one only does hydrogen. Then there’s an instrument at the Liquid Crystal that ran infrared for the different branches of the molecule, with other things, like oxygen. This is strictly hydrogen.

CRAWFORD: Then you're able to discern this chemical structure from this data?

KANTERS: Exactly.

CRAWFORD: What is this black line here?

KANTERS: I’m not exactly sure why that’s up there. That might be another graph. Usually they don’t have that. You can see on the other ones they don’t usually have that. I’m not sure if that’s something else, over top of that, but that’s usually not on the graph that I—she might be trying to explain something with this.

CRAWFORD: This graph here, aside from the black mark, this was your work, or could have been?

KANTERS: I would say yes. Yes, could have been. Because I had some in some of the other publications, but that’s what mine looked like. Sometimes in the acknowledgements in the back, it will say that—“Somebody ran that.” The only thing I can think of was this up here is less—the peaks should look like this. This is less pure because they're blended peaks. I’m not sure if maybe that was what it was like before somebody clarified that. It doesn't normally do that.

CRAWFORD: I gather that the letters here—so there’s like letters A and B—correspond—

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: —to these. So here’s A, here’s B.

KANTERS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: How do you decide that this peak, this hydrogen, is in this position on the molecule and this hydrogen is there? Were you involved in that?

KANTERS: I knew, when I ran that, because I made the liquid crystal, and I knew where it should be. According to where it is on the phenyl ring or the benzene ring, here, it definitely will determine where it is on this map, or on this graph. You can see that they're different, on both ends, and that has a big influence on how the scan will run, when it’s coming out, coming to the lab. It’s just the spin of that magnet, and I’m not sure exactly how that—I knew that I had the right thing if I saw that. You always see the same thing to begin with, but then what you're looking for might be out here. Or, the purity; you don’t want to see an impurity in there, and those show up, if it’s in there.

CRAWFORD: What would an impurity look like?

KANTERS: A mound. It’ll be like a little small mound, in there.

CRAWFORD: Just in the middle or—?

KANTERS: Or even the peaks here, if you didn’t have your exact molecule, these peaks, it would just be one round kind of mound, or like a—mound.

CRAWFORD: That would tell you that there was something else in there other than the liquid crystal that you're looking for?

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: Good!

KANTERS: So that’s interesting.

CRAWFORD: Great. So, you were doing this work to produce liquid crystals. You said you were using NMR to identify them, also looking at them under the microscope. Were there any other tests that you did to identify?

KANTERS: Yes. That was the only one in the Chemistry Building, was the NMR, so we made the trip over there. We were borrowing it from them, so we always had to respect the Chemistry Department. Working at the Institute, we always knew that anywhere outside of the building, we were a visitor to that building, using that, or whatever. But we had our own infrared, IR we called it, and that gave us the groups on these molecules. Infrared was a little more I would say—mmm—not as—the NMR really told you what you had, but the IR, as you're making your compound, would tell you, as you go, if you're doing the right thing. You could run that as many times as you want. It was on the second floor, so we ran that all the time, and we had our own. It was always nice to get a new one. We had the microscope in the—there was all different equipment, but that was the instrument that we used the most, the IR, and the NMR, that mattered, really. The rest were just melting point, or you kind of had to test things as you went.

CRAWFORD: In addition to making solutions and making certain types of liquid crystals, did you have other duties as a lab assistant, or was that the majority of what you were doing?

KANTERS: I’m glad you asked that! [laughs] Actually, half of the work was keeping things stocked, and half of it was work. There’s a lot of work in stocking up. There was a lot of work—just whenever Mary would be in her lab, we would keep her dishes clean and all that. So on the side, you were helping keep her area stocked and everything. When the chemicals would come in, we’d get them up to our floor, bring them up, the five-gallon can or whatever. But as far as chemicals and acids, we had to bring everything over from Chemistry, the Williams Hall.

CRAWFORD: Really! [laughs]

KANTERS: Dry ice, distilled water, ethanol. I would carry the dry ice in a bucket. I had class on the way, sometimes, so I would—geology—I would sit there with my bucket on my way down to—

CRAWFORD: [laughs]

KANTERS: —you know, and the steam coming around. But I didn’t have time to do that. So, carried that down, and all the distilled water. It was a three-gallon jug with that. The ethanol, every time we made a trip from Williams, we pretty much had something to bring over.

CRAWFORD: Why didn’t they just have those materials delivered directly to the LCI?

KANTERS: Just the heavy—the five-gallon—the chloroform, and benzene. I think because those were more—those were solvents, and the truck had—that might be the only secure vehicle that came, was the solvents that came in—the can that came from someone delivering that. We couldn't really carry those. That might be the only reason why. [laughs] Because they tried—the three gallons of distilled water, we had to carry that. I’d use my car sometimes, but I didn’t always have a parking space. I used the bus a lot. I parked out wherever I could. But I had my places to work behind the Lincoln Building, sometimes. Later on, I would park there. But as far as the solvents and the residues from our chemicals, either they went out the fume hood, or I took the jugs, in my car, like I said, over to Chemistry.

CRAWFORD: [laughs] Wow.

KANTERS: Yeah!

CRAWFORD: I know you said you had your own lab, but you were part of Dr. Neubert’s lab group, basically.

KANTERS: Synthesis group, right.

CRAWFORD: The organic synthesis group.

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: When you joined that group in 1982, how many members were in the group, and what was it like being a part of that group?

KANTERS: Wow, our members.

CRAWFORD: I mean roughly.

KANTERS: Half a dozen? Some were in physics. Our synthesis group was just us. Four? Less than five.

CRAWFORD: You, Dr. Neubert—

KANTERS: Yeah, and one of the assistants.

CRAWFORD: Was it Cindy ?

KANTERS: Cindy , yeah. I worked with Cindy, and then later Mike. Mike’s the last one on the list, there.

CRAWFORD: Mike—?

KANTERS: Jirousek.

CRAWFORD: Jirousek, yeah.

KANTERS: Because I needed help, so I asked him in class, and he came on. Just a huge relief to have help, especially to get the chemicals to the third floor. I don’t think I’ve ever done anything more physical than that work, until he came on, so that was good. The synthesis group was—four of us? Later another—Kathy came on. The physics people aren’t really in the synthesis part, so I’d have to say just four or five of us, in the several years that I was there.

CRAWFORD: In the Lincoln Building?

KANTERS: Right. Usually it’s just two assistants and Mary.

CRAWFORD: I know you said you spent a lot of time working alone, but did you ever work together as a group?

KANTERS: No.

CRAWFORD: How did you coordinate your work, then?

KANTERS: We had a list of chemicals to make. A lot of it was new. The liquid crystals had never been made before, so what you did was a new thing. Mary always said, “Well, you aren’t going to know how that’s going to turn out. You want to be a perfectionist and know it’s going to be this, but it’s never that way in this building. It’s always new.” So what you did was always—it was curiosity—you were curious about what this was going to be like, and the microscope would be such a thrill, to see different phases and things that came on. But we never worked together. I was good at some of the ethanols, and alcohols, that I would make. The other assistant would make something else—thioesters or whatever—and they were good at it. She kind of gave you what you were good at. You never worked with her. Hers was always her own, once a week in the lab or something. You just always supported and stocked her lab with stuff, made sure everything was full and stuff. So, ten hours of my day were—20 hours a week—so half of that was keeping things stocked up, and the other half was work. It’s not like that now, where I think they can just work, and they don’t have to do any of that, but I spent most of my time just stocking up, and dragging everything over. The letter from Mary there tells it all, the one that—

CRAWFORD: This letter that you gave me?

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: How many hours, roughly, per week, were you doing this?

KANTERS: Twenty.

CRAWFORD: About 20 hours a week?

KANTERS: Twenty. And I had a special project that I did on my own for—I didn’t get paid for that. It was two hours towards my degree; I got a special project. That should have been a master’s but—

CRAWFORD: What was that special project?

KANTERS: It was just another experiment that involved more. It took several hours out of the week, towards this one project. It was just another part of the liquid crystal research. I don’t exactly remember what that was. It wasn’t anything different, really, than what I was doing, other than it was a side project towards my degree.

CRAWFORD: But it was another experiment producing these new liquid crystals or new chemicals associated with liquid crystals?

KANTERS: Yes. Because a lot of the chemistry had to be not just make a liquid crystal. it would be a lot of products that you're making to form new liquid crystals. So, a lot of those.

CRAWFORD: Since we're talking about the organic synthesis group a little bit, you have brought a number of documents from your time at the Liquid Crystal Institute. One of them is a copy of a plaque that was put in one of the new buildings.

KANTERS: Between Williams and Smith.

CRAWFORD: I think it’s called the Science Research Building or something like that.

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: The one that the LCI moved to, after the Lincoln Building, but not where it currently is.

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: Which I think was maybe 1984, or something like that?

KANTERS: That would be 1986.

CRAWFORD: 1986, okay.

KANTERS: That should still be there. It might be in the office, but—

[Refers to plaque, see plaque image & remarks]

CRAWFORD: So, there’s this plaque, and you have a typed copy of it. I’m just going to read it, so we have it on audio: “This laboratory is dedicated to the following former members of the organic synthesis group of the Liquid Crystal Institute, who under the direction of Dr. Mary E. Neubert, helped this group, survive, grow, and obtain a quality reputation, while often enduring unpleasant working conditions in the Lincoln Research Building.” Then there are a number of names here. First of all, I wonder if you could talk about what this plaque meant to you, because your name is listed here, as a member of this group that helped the organic synthesis group survive, grow, and obtain a quality reputation. What was it like to see that plaque?

KANTERS: Oh, it was such an honor. Just for the work that we all put into that, into working there, and knowing what it is now, I felt that we deserved that. It was an honor, though. Through the years, we didn’t always know that, but when she wrote that letter, that was just the honor, and such an honor for us. I felt good.

CRAWFORD: I wonder if you could tell us about this letter. I haven't had a chance to read it, since you just gave it to me before this, but what is this letter about? What is it talking about?

KANTERS: That is exactly the way the lab was, when I stepped in there and through the years, a couple years working there. It talked about the heating and the air, the air flow. Sometimes no electricity. The weather was a big deal, because if it was cold—we had things that would freeze, and it was in the forties in there. Things would freeze, so probably colder. I think a lot of the physical conditions were very hard to work with. And that building didn’t have anything that chemistry labs have now. We had none of that. So, everything had to be put there, and manually done. The roof leaked, and it drips down on your thing, your compound. You had to prepare for all that. So if it was going to rain a lot, put your stuff away [laughs] and—

CRAWFORD: Wow.

KANTERS: So, there were so many physical things against that building, that when we got the new building, it was just such a joy. I almost couldn't accept that we did all that, and now they don’t have to. That letter explains all the problems we had with that, and I guess we didn’t really know it at the time, that we were putting up with a lot.

CRAWFORD: It sounds like—or I should ask you if this would be a fair characterization—it sounds like there were some problems with the building, just as a building. Nobody wants a leaky roof.

KANTERS: Right. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: But it also sounds like it wasn’t a building built for chemical synthesis or for scientific research.

KANTERS: Right. I don’t know how that ever started to—it’s not a building for that, no. Vacuum—you use all kind of things in a lab that you really need to have a simple way of using it so you can get things done. Vacuum, for instance. To get a vacuum to purify your product, you had to run water—continuously, your water is running down there, out of a faucet, under a hood, because of the fumes, and the water gave the vacuum. We had a tube down off the end, with a side arm—you've seen that, maybe—and that was our vacuum. I don’t know how many tons of water we went through, but that was the vacuum in those labs on the third floor.

CRAWFORD: In the labs in the Chemistry Building, did you have the same kind of challenges in the Chemistry Building?

KANTERS: No. It’s just a knob; turn on the knob.

CRAWFORD: Because that was a building built with chemistry in mind.

KANTERS: Right. The lab, they had to bring the tables in, and all that lab equipment had to be brought in for that. It really was not an easy way to do what we were doing, over there, with that kind of setup. I think just weather had a lot to do with that. You could open a window, which you can’t do that now, but there were times we needed to air it out, the fumes, and it could be bad, throughout the whole building.

CRAWFORD: I don’t know if you can answer this question, because you were just a student research assistant, but why would they put the chemistry labs on the third floor? Isn’t that something you’d want to have on the first floor? [laughs]

KANTERS: [laughs] I tried to think about that. Well, I didn’t think about it at the time, when I was there. But the offices were down on the lower level there, which would be an easier place to take chemicals down, when they were full—downstairs—than up two flights. The middle floors were x-ray, the restrooms. There was only one, so you had to wait. Which was really weird, too. I don’t understand how that really was. We had an instrument on the second floor. The third floor, the only thing I can think of is because of the vents, coming out of the top.

CRAWFORD: Oh, okay. Was the third floor the top floor of the building?

KANTERS: Yes, and there are so many vents from all our hoods. That’s the only thing I can think of, because it was easier just to go out the roof. And there were a lot of fumes, that didn’t really need to be going out, but they were. So, that definitely is why.

CRAWFORD: It sounds like both this plaque and this letter that you've given me that Dr. Neubert wrote really meant to sort of memorialize, in a way, the challenges that the organic synthesis group faced working in the Lincoln Building, and yet still managed to do very high-quality work. I know from other interviews that Dr. Neubert’s work was known around the world. It sounds like some of the things that you personally were preparing were being sent to other research scientists at other universities, or in other countries. That’s a real testament to the standing of the quality of your work. This plaque and this letter memorialize that. Why do you think it was important to do that? Why is it important to tell this story?

KANTERS: I know that we were kind of by ourselves down there. I don’t think anyone knew what it was like down there. Nobody ever came down there. As far as that letter, as big as the Liquid Crystal Institute has become, it really is this foundation of how we started, and I think just knowing the hardships that—it would have been easier to stay in the stock room—the hardships to get that to keep going like that. I know that Mary felt supported by a lot of the things that we helped her with. She would call—she’s overseas—and say, “Hey, I need this amount sent to Germany.” Because she’s over at a conference. So I wrapped it up and shipped it to Germany, because she was there, and she said she could get it to him, so I would send it. Just knowing how all of that has spread out, to be known by everyone—but it came with a price here. I’ve never been able to really talk about the—I would say suffering, because it really was a lot of suffering. The letter really goes into detail with some of that. I think she wanted people to know that it wasn’t easy. But it is now. I would love to work in a new building, in a new lab. In 1986, when I came to the new lab, I almost couldn't function in that, [laughs] because of what I’m used to, just downright old-fashioned, in the old Lincoln Building.

CRAWFORD: I’m also trying to understand I guess how the organic synthesis group fit into the larger structure—and I mean that in kind of a metaphorical sense—of the Liquid Crystal Institute. Because the Institute—again, I’m talking about before the first new building is built in 1986—the Institute is kind of based in the Lincoln Building, but from what you're telling me, it sounds like it was mostly the organic synthesis group working there, producing the liquid crystals, and then you would give them to other people, faculty, in the Physics Department, the Chemistry Department, and then they're doing their research on liquid crystals in their own labs, on campus, in Williams Hall or—

KANTERS: Smith.

CRAWFORD: —or Smith. Is that more or less accurate?

KANTERS: Yes. That was the synthesis group, and I guess that’s where all the smells came out of all the stuff that we were making. It could be kind of—the whole building would be—we needed to be off campus, probably. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: The Lincoln Building, you said earlier that you thought it was a glass factory. But it was actually kind of a factory.

KANTERS: Right. I don’t know what that was. Maybe it’s because Dr. Brown started doing that in a building that he could do that at, and that was the only one. He lived in Kent. I’m pretty sure he lived—and it was close by, and he started there, acquired this building or however—and added to it. Mary realized, “Well, these physics people want to do so many things,” but she saw the need for synthesis. So how she came there and started to synthesize that—and she was the only synthesis person. She was the only one. I made things for Dr. Johnson in Physics. I would take them to the Physics Department for him. Some things went overseas. I mostly made stuff for Dr. Johnson. But a lot of the Physics people required the things that we were making. There were a couple offices on the third floor—one—Dr. Saupe was up there. The second floor was Dr. de Vries, was the second, I think x-ray. But no other synthesis at all, in that building. There were two labs that were empty, closed, when I was there, but when I left, they had—Dr. Ziemnicka was in the one, and then Kathy Leung in the other one. Kind of some more support that we needed. But Dr. Ziemnicka, she did not work for Mary. She worked for Dr. Arora , so she wasn’t in our synthesis. The synthesis, why it couldn't be done in the Chemistry Building, I don’t know why; why we had to be down there.

CRAWFORD: Might have just been an issue of space.

KANTERS: I think. I think. And it was starting out, so—

CRAWFORD: Just so we could have this, could you go through this list of names here, and read them off, and tell us if you remember what the person’s role was? I know you might not know all of these.

KANTERS: Yes, I do, though. Leo Carlino , I don’t know. Larry Maurer worked there, and he became the glassblower, over in the Chemistry Building, I think until retirement. He was excellent at making our equipment.

CRAWFORD: He was a staff person, not a student?

KANTERS: Right. A student starting out, but there again, he found that interest, and stayed in that, and he blew a lot of—did the glass for our experiments and things. And Stanley Laskos, he came back, because he was a student, and when I came back in 1986, he was there full-time. So he came back. Joe Ferrato,, I did not meet. Rob Griffith . Martha Stahl, I briefly saw her in the Chemistry Building. I think she was getting ready to get her PhD or something, so I didn’t see her in the building. Patricia Wildman, I don’t know. Raymond Cline, I think might be in the picture. Tom Santora, I don’t—Robert Yerman. I worked with Cindy Colby Rampersaud . Her and I worked together for probably a year before she graduated. Then Katherine Leung, I worked with her, in 1984, just before I left, and then I actually went and worked at the company where her husband—Mactac, over in—over 91—I can’t think of the name of—it was called Mactac. But her husband worked there. So I left Liquid Crystal Institute to go work there. Before I left, I worked with Michael Jirousek, for a year.

CRAWFORD: I’m trying to figure out the logic of this list. It’s not alphabetical. Is it in the order of when the people maybe joined the synthesis group?

KANTERS: Yes. And that was the end, before the new building. I don’t think Mike worked over there, in the new building. Maybe Katherine. So, that was kind of the end. A new building, and then it was a year—they moved everything over there—and then I came back to the new building and worked a year. There are several of us in there that liked what we were doing and came back. I would probably still be there, if I didn’t have [laughs]—an hour’s drive—or well, it’s 45 minutes. But that was just—yeah. I still would have.

CRAWFORD: You've given me a number of—I think there’s maybe four of them here, or five—

KANTERS: Three? Five, I think. Gosh—one, two—

CRAWFORD: —maybe more—these are progress reports. The first one is Progress Report #1 , December 1982 to May 1983. Can you explain what these are, these progress reports? What are they telling us?

KANTERS: We had to do a progress report I think twice a year. We had to write the report from our lab books, and everything that we did for that period of time, twice a year, I think it was. In exact detail. Starting from preparation. Well, the data that—everything we used, all the instruments. Objectives. Exactly how we did it, in detail. In addition to the experimental, we had to use our scans, infrared, NMR scans, to back up what we were doing. And conclusions, about that project, or about that compound that we made. It was just kind of in a certain format that you always did that. Then she would correct it, and you would rewrite it until it was completely—until it was perfect, really. Then she would use that for the publications, so everything had to be exact.

CRAWFORD: You’re taking what you've written down in your lab notebooks, condensing it, distilling it, in a way, into these progress reports, and then Dr. Neubert is using these reports for her own publications, and other sorts of work?

KANTERS: Right. That would be in the publications, so that had to be exact. Whether you are acknowledged in a publication or what, but she would use your report for supporting that publication, which you have some of those.

CRAWFORD: You would get acknowledged in the publications. Did you ever get authorship?

KANTERS: No. I was acknowledged in a couple, but—

CRAWFORD: Actually—

KANTERS: Yeah, right.

CRAWFORD: —you're listed here, as an author.

KANTERS: I think the ones I gave you—Mary had given me those. Those three, I think I am authorship on those. There are some that I’m not. I looked, and I had done the NMRs, or I had made something that someone used. They do have to acknowledge if you made something for it. So, each report, there’s several projects that you worked on for that quarter that you're working on, and then in exact detail what you did. So if your notebook was not up to date—I learned a lot! [laughs]

CRAWFORD: [laughs]

KANTERS: You couldn't get away with filling that in without knowing. You had to do it all over again. That just builds on the trust that you have in each other. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: [laughs]

KANTERS: We all know about that! [laughs]

CRAWFORD: I know we've talked about many different experiences that you had as a laboratory assistant at the Liquid Crystal Institute. We talked about some of the experiments. You worked with NMR, microscopes, and stuff. Are there other significant memories that you have from that time? Interactions with individuals, or—?

KANTERS: I do, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Would you like to share some of those?

KANTERS: I do, and they're kind of big ones, big ideas. A couple instances, when I was working on my special project—and there was a rule down there that you never worked alone, in the building. There always had to be someone around, in case of some accident. There had to be someone else around. Well, I found out on one incident where I was alone, I went to leave, and I couldn't find anyone [laughs] else. So, I locked up, the building. That was closer to holidays and things, when everybody had their own—but some of those people didn’t talk, so they just left. There was always supposed to be somebody—office, anybody. So, I found myself making sure that there was somebody else around. It did happen on at least one occasion where I had to lock up, and nobody was there. But every Friday, Dr. Brown would walk down the hallway to see what each of us were doing. I looked forward to that.

CRAWFORD: Really!

KANTERS: Uh-huh.

CRAWFORD: That wasn’t intimidating at all?

KANTERS: No!

CRAWFORD: The founder of the LCI coming in?

KANTERS: I know! [laughs] Sweating! [laughs] At the time, I never—you're just so busy. He would just stand at your doorway. One occasion, I was working on my hydrogen project, doing the gas flow and all, and I never wanted to be bothered when I was doing that. But he wanted to see what I was doing. So that was a little intimidating, when he was watching, when I really wanted to be sure I’m not going to do anything wrong here. And he watched that. He really couldn't see very well, so I wasn’t sure what he really saw. He didn’t really say much. You couldn't hear him. [laughs] He kind of just really mumbled, and I wasn’t sure if he could see. I really—he was still the director. I really kind of struggled with—maybe it was me?—I couldn't hear him. I had trouble hearing him. And it was so noisy in the lab. After a while, you got used to that. He really wanted to know what you were doing, and it was a little overwhelming with I guess pride to be able to work for him, work here. I thought that was the coolest thing. Nobody knew that, down there, who we were or whatever. Only the people in Chemistry would know. But the honor that he has over the whole world with this stuff—and it only became later in the years—but to see him there. And like the picture we have, that was just a random—we stood out front and took that. Mary probably took that. “He’s going to come over” and—his wife brought him over a lot because he couldn't see to drive. That was an honor, to be able to do that, there, while he was. Just things like that, that I’ll treasure forever. I’ll just cherish those, those moments. It was—crazy.

CRAWFORD: [laughs]

KANTERS: For sure. But I think when the university would go into Friday night—and it’s right across from the student housing down there—you had to leave. You had to get out. I mean, they were starting to build up on the street there, and—I’m not that kind of person, really. I wanted to get out. You had to kind of time it around all that, and get out of town, there. So I did that. But I just had so much that I was trying to get done. The only reason I left in 1984 was for an industry job, to make some more money. I never should have left. I regret that to this day, that I left there.

CRAWFORD: Why?

KANTERS: Because I loved it. Mary and I would talk for hours, or go to dinner, or whatever. It was just kind of like I had somebody that I could just talk to. And after the years—every year, I still get a letter, and I call her on the phone. I just—she really—I think her, she actually gave me my—the confidence, that I needed.

CRAWFORD: How did she do that, do you think?

KANTERS: When you talked to her, she really gave you that determination, and that you could do that. If you had any doubt at all, she would not think that you should have any doubt about that. She gave you so much—Hope? Is that the word? Hope. Just that “We need your work. We need everything you do. And you're good at it.” She told me that. I never thought I was a perfectionist. She said that, but I never thought I was.

CRAWFORD: [laughs]

KANTERS: That was our only disagreement. But I had my archeology, and she had her art, and we were always opposites, and we kind of just grew older, I guess. I would have to say, being able to graduate with a BS in Chemistry, I would have to say that she had a huge part in that, in just doing that, just completing that and doing that, because of the knowledge she gave me in writing, and everything I learned was from her. She could have been a professor, but I don’t think she wanted to do that. I know she did everything else supporting that. But because of her, I was able to get that, and complete that, and then have these projects that I’m proud of, really. I’ve always wanted to tell people about the problems we had, trying to make a compound—but I don’t think she really thought anything of that. She was just the person just to barge right through that, and just—fshoo! So, we kind of did that, too.

CRAWFORD: You said you left in 1984 to take a better-paying industry job. I presume it was an hourly wage for the lab assistant. Do you remember what you were getting paid back then?

KANTERS: Yes. Things like that, you do remember. I made—$4.05. It was one of the highest-paying campus jobs, And I left for a $6—

CRAWFORD: [laughs]

KANTERS: —I know! I left for $6—I would say double, but it’s not quite. I just really needed the money. We all did, really, going through school. It was another lab, and it was making—Mactac is adhesives, is what it was. I was kind of thinking about industry later, going into industry and labs, so I thought it would be good experience. But leaving the Institute was the worst move I’ve ever made, and I do regret that.

CRAWFORD: You said you went to Mactac?

KANTERS: Yeah, M-A-C—Morgan Adhesives Company.

CRAWFORD: Morgan Adhesives Company.

KANTERS: Mactac, for short.

CRAWFORD: You were working there while you were finishing your undergraduate degree?

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: What were you doing for them?

KANTERS: I was a lab assistant. Like I said, Kathy Leung, her husband worked there, so I kind of got in knowing someone else. I was a lab assistant in inorganic chemistry, which is not like the organic that I came from. So I wasn’t happy. But I did work like a year there, and then I went back to the Institute, in 1986.

CRAWFORD: You go back to the Institute in 1986. You've graduated now.

KANTERS: Right, 1985.

CRAWFORD: What are you doing then? And this was in the new building?

KANTERS: 1986 was in the new building. They had just moved in, so I didn’t help them move there. I had my own lab there, in the new building. I was considered—I had my name on the door, but I don’t think it’s a chemist. I guess when you graduate you could be called that—like a project chemist. That’s what I was doing at Smith & Nephew, was a project chemist. But it was just synthesis work with Mary, so I would consider it the same as what I was doing as lab technician. And that’s fine; I’m happy doing that. But I guess at that point, it could be project chemistry. But under Mary, I’m just—I’m a synthetic chemist, I guess.

CRAWFORD: Why did you decide to come back to the LCI?

KANTERS: I missed it, and I loved it. I missed her. And Stanley came back. He was there. Stanley Laskos was there. And the group grew. It like doubled in size. And she knew that I—I worked on the MSDS, the safety. She needed that. She needed somebody to do that, that she knew liked it, and could do it. So, I worked on the safety sheets, and kept that organized. Got it organized, and started. The students were kind of—I worked around—they were all around me. So it wasn’t as—you weren’t by yourself, but I had my own lab, there. So it was because I missed it, and I loved it.

CRAWFORD: [laughs] Yeah. But you only stayed for like a year?

KANTERS: Right. I did. I would say it wasn’t always the money, but the grant money, that was always an issue, the grants we were getting. NSF.[2] It was always kind of an issue. If were running out of money, we didn’t know if we were going to be able to work. And it came down to the wire, a few times. Then we got the money. She was always writing that. You knew when she was doing that, you wouldn't bother her. So, I couldn't wait to find out if we got a grant or not, and we did. There were times where we’d have to spend money so it would look like we were using it! It was just this twist of things. We bought glassware. I was always the person to organize stock rooms and buy the glassware and chemicals and all that stuff. So, now we have money, now we don’t, now we do; it was just playing that grant game. That was still kind of an issue in 1986. I had another offer, closer to home in Massillon, at Smith & Nephew, which is medical. They made surgical rubber gloves. That’s all they did. It was a salary job, and it was close to home, and it was a good salary, and that was three years there. It was always money.

CRAWFORD: Well, you know—it’s important.

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: How did you get the job at Smith & Nephew?

KANTERS: Mary knew that I always needed to find—trying to better myself, or more money, even though she didn’t want to lose anyone. That one, I got on my own. Actually, 1986, when I left, I had different industry jobs. One was in Akron at the—oh my gosh, the rubber—oh, geez, I’m blank on that—I worked for a summer, in environmental—not EPA,[3] but the—they wore the badges—like air quality. So it was kind of a—

CRAWFORD: OSHA[4]?

KANTERS: Yeah, exactly, thank you. It was the OSHA lab, for three months. But that lab was closing, as those plants do. So, I left there, and I found the one in Massillon on my own, and applied for that. Frustrating.

CRAWFORD: What kind of work were you doing for Smith & Nephew?

KANTERS: That was project chemist. They were trying to work on the powder-free gloves, the nitriles. That’s what we were working on.

CRAWFORD: Like developing them, or improving them?

KANTERS: Right, yes. Developing them. Then of course the plant went overseas after about three years, after I left. But it was developing the nitrile glove. That was a big deal, really. And it is. Prepared—all the powder, and people allergic to that, and latex, and—so I got laid off, because that plant went overseas as a lot of other things did. Which was—the Akron plant, it was the—I’m blank on that. [laughs] It was right in the middle of Akron.

CRAWFORD: Was it BFGoodrich?

KANTERS: No, [GenCorp]. I don’t know now what all that is, but it was that OSHA lab.

CRAWFORD: This is a time in American manufacturing where many companies are going overseas. It’s happening in northeast Ohio, other parts of the country. Did you ever consider then maybe going back to graduate school for chemistry at all?

KANTERS: No, I never did. My biggest regret is leaving the synthesis group. That was my biggest regret. That just kept growing and growing. Then when I left Smith & Nephew, that was 1990, I think it was? Yeah. I got laid off. Then I got married like a year later, and we had our daughter in 1991, and I was just not—I actually was still interviewing, and I actually got a job at the Goodyear hangar, in the aircraft braking right there. I actually got a job there, but I had my daughter, and that [laughs]—that was it, I think. I said “no” to that job. I just couldn't do it. I stayed home for probably nine years, had my son, and—you know. So, I stayed home. That was the years that I fell behind, and I couldn't get back into that field. That’s why I went to Tuslaw. I was a school bus driver there, just to get back in the working field, and it wasn’t going to be chemistry—which, I was a little concerned. That’s the problem when you're female and you're in a chemistry lab. You just can’t be in there around those chemicals. My daughter—the same way. She’s a chemist, and she works at home, so she’s not in a lab. They just had their first child. You don’t want to be around those chemicals.

CRAWFORD: You mean when you're like nursing a child?

KANTERS: Yeah, when you're in childbearing years, at all. Especially the ones we were around; I wouldn't have done that. At the time, you don’t think about that, but later, I did. So that means a lot, right there, that you can’t just do anything and then still have a healthy child. So, there’s a lot to think about, as the years go on. So, I never went back, then, and for good reason.

CRAWFORD: In what ways do you think your experiences at the LCI informed your career even beyond chemistry?

KANTERS: And it did. It did. It is the reason that I finished my degree in chemistry. That’s probably the sole reason, because I enjoyed it, and I actually enjoyed the organic part. And it wasn’t without a struggle, because I had to have help in different—like tutoring, or just—I had to do everything I could to learn, and get through the physical chemistry, or inorganic. I really learned which chemistry I really liked more than others. Until you have those classes, you don’t know that. But that experience down there—completely irreplaceable, in my opinion. Irreplaceable, as to how I am, and did what I wanted to do. Just having the technical skills to learn all that—I’m doing that now. I can fix—like just keeping up with the digital technology—without that and being able to figure that out, and some of the things through the years, I am still doing that. And I’m actually pretty good at it!

CRAWFORD: In what way? Can you give us some examples of how you're still—?

KANTERS: The terminology, just the mentality to be able to figure something out, which I did a lot of through my years at the Liquid Crystal Institute. Figuring things out, all the time. Maybe some people do that more than others, but I am still doing that. I can sit down at something new, and I can do it. I can put it together. I can set up a computer. It’s getting easier, but I mean, it is easy, for me, but not for other people.

CRAWFORD: So, computers—

KANTERS: Right.

CRAWFORD: Computer technology is one area that you've applied that kind of mentality to.

KANTERS: I did, yes, and I actually enjoy that. We didn’t have that back then. If we did, I may be doing that. But the thing that would hold me back is I don’t think I could sit at a computer all day, and be one of those IT people. I would have been stuck there. [laughs] That’s why I know that I like to be moving around and physically working on things, and not at a desk. So, a computer person might be doing that. So, a lot of questions answered with that. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: I wanted to ask you one more question about your time at the LCI. You spent the two years working as a laboratory assistant from 1982 to 1984. Then you come back in 1986. In that period, the Liquid Crystal Institute goes through some changes. Dr. Doane takes over. Dr. Bill Doane takes over as director I think in 1984 or 1983, maybe even a little earlier than that. Was he director—?

KANTERS: 1984. I think Dr. Brown was until 1983.

CRAWFORD: Yeah, 1983.

KANTERS: Then I remember Mary saying, “Oh, Dr. Doane is going to take over.” There was all this talk—“Dr. Doane’s taking over.” But Dr. Doane was never down there, that I recall.

CRAWFORD: I think he was in the Physics Department.

KANTERS: Yeah, so how could he be director and he’s over there? Right there, 1983 into 1984—

CRAWFORD: You said you used the NMR in Chemistry. Because he did NMR work, but you didn’t work with his NMR or his group at all?

KANTERS: No. I’m always around the physics people, some of them that are up on the third floor with the NMR. The CMR was up there, too—for carbon, not hydrogen. We weren’t allowed on that one. But the Physics Department was just—was bigger, actually, than—for the Institute—than our little synthesis. It was all physics. We started to hear about flat panels, and how this is going to be, and they needed what we were doing, to do that. Dr. Ziemnicka came in, and she was always talking about the flat panel. She said they were talking about cars, and being able to—when the sun—with the roof being able to change. I remember her talking about that, and I thought, “Yeah, yeah—” [laughs] The flat panels, all this is a reality, then. She was synthesizing those, so she was in physics. That was all of us—then Kathy Leung was helping Mary synthesize too, and she was full time. So, it was a changing group, like you said.

CRAWFORD: You were aware that there was a kind of shift towards displays and flat-panel displays and stuff?

KANTERS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Were there any other changes? I know there’s the new building in 1986. Did the Institute feel different to you when you came back in 1986 at all?

KANTERS: Oh, it did. It did.

CRAWFORD: In what way?

KANTERS: Because the Physics were with us now, down the hall, so I was interacting with the Physics people. You could kind of be a little bit closer to what was going on with your chemicals, because they're right there. You’d look in their lab, and it was all screens and—none of that. Of course, our labs were all the chemicals—smelly, and you know. So, you were right with them, now. That was a huge thing. And Dr. Doane was there. I think that’s about the time that he took over, more, in the new building. There was a fuzzy—between 1983 and 1984, the new building was being built, and I think that he started in that one. I talked to him a lot.

CRAWFORD: Oh yeah?

KANTERS: Not about what we were doing, but just a lot of—you’d see him. And Dr. Ziemnicka , she had some problems in there and getting back, so I talked to him quite a bit. They were friends. It kind of had that atmosphere of being friends, more, than just working together and things. I raced up here when she was coming back from Poland. I couldn't wait to see her. I went to Dr. Doane’s house, and his wife—they were there. It was late, at night.

CRAWFORD: When was this?

KANTERS: That might have been 1984.

CRAWFORD: This was when you were working—?

KANTERS: I was still in there, yeah. I was still at the Institute, and she came. It was more of an atmosphere of just knowing them kind of personally, really. She finally came. I know her last—well, it’s not on this one, but she was married, and her last name was Merchant . Well, I took them to the airport before she flew to Poland. Then her husband was calling me; she could not get out of Poland.

CRAWFORD: Really!

KANTERS: She couldn't get out, whatever the situation. So he would call me, and I said, “I really can’t—” He hoped that I could help.

CRAWFORD: [laughs] But what could you do?

KANTERS: Yeah! [laughs] So it was personal, and we all just interacted.

CRAWFORD: It sounds like the new building and having everybody in the same place and being able to interact and everything—

KANTERS: That was huge. That was a huge plus.

CRAWFORD: It occurs to me, too, just going back to this plaque and this letter that Dr. Neubert wrote—was there a sense, maybe, that some of the other members of the Institute maybe didn’t really appreciate the work of the synthesis group? Was that part of this idea of having this plaque and writing this letter?

KANTERS: I know for a fact that some people aren’t on that list. There was somebody that—I came—I actually took his lab, and Mary did not approve of him. He’s not on that list. He didn’t do good work; I don’t know what, exactly. I guess it is more of a way to say “thank you” to the people here that actually—

CRAWFORD: So you think that’s really what she was trying to do with this?

KANTERS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: To recognize the work of you guys, not so much advertise to the rest of the Liquid Crystal Institute—

KANTERS: Right. That helped her to accomplish her goals. Recognition wasn’t really her big thing. She wasn’t a person that needed all that. She got it, whether she wanted it or not. But we supported that. She always thought that we never really had a say in anything. She wanted us to—with this plaque—I think to know that we did help, that we did help her, and the group.

CRAWFORD: So really giving the student assistants recognition.

KANTERS: Yes. That we didn’t always feel we had, being an undergrad and that. Even as far as—I wasn’t sure how many—but I’m glad. I feel a part of that. And going through the years, I know exactly what I’m glad I did, and things that I’m not glad. And just—all because of this Liquid Crystal Institute. And Mary, in particular. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: Is there anything else you would like to share about your time at the LCI or its impact?

KANTERS: I would have to say I’m glad that we can do this, and everybody hears what it was like, and who really did what. I’m proud of that, so, I thank you.

CRAWFORD: Thank you. I know that you haven't worked in chemistry in a long time, and I know that doing science today is probably very different. But I wonder if you have any advice to someone who is considering a career in science, just based on your own experience. I mean, I don’t think it’s that different, necessarily. Do you have any advice to someone, like a student?

KANTERS: In my own experiences, and my kids growing up, we did experiments on the kitchen table and had fun. I know now the STEM and all the programs going, and she—she did some of that. A person has to just start doing something and see how they like that. It really tells you where your strengths are, and where they're not, where you're weak. It’s just to have the determination, and the will, to just do that. That’s a big thing.

CRAWFORD: Great. I like to ask in these interviews, because we are still hopefully maybe in the tail end of the COVID pandemic, but we're still getting updates about it occasionally and so forth. But we've just come off a couple years of this global pandemic that had a major impact on our society. I just wonder if you could say a little bit about the experience of living through that pandemic, and maybe what impact it had on you, and your daily life.

KANTERS: Yeah, that was kind of a hard time for everybody. I think it was a little bit—in the beginning, everybody was afraid to get it, until they found out more about that—it’s airborne, and not surface-borne. I think there was a lot of fear, and just all the unknown, really. But not being able to, I want to say, do things—for me, in my job, it was getting to be hard to keep working as a school bus driver, to the point, with everything that everybody was saying, that I decided to retire early, because I didn’t know what was coming out of that, and all of the unknowns. It was really hard on the kids, I noticed, in the schools. Very hard. So we, as a bus driver, and the adults that these kids look up to, they wanted some kind of a—they would look to me, for kind of guidance here, of what’s going on. Because they would come running out of school, that first day when that started, and wonder, “What is going on?” And just you’d calm everybody down. So it made it—every job, I think for everybody—a lot harder, just getting everybody through it. Looking back, it’s—it’s okay.

CRAWFORD: To be sure I understand, are you saying that the pandemic played a role in your decision to retire early, or do you think that would have happened anyway?

KANTERS: I think it would have happened anyway, but it really confirmed my leaving, knowing that there was another round coming. So it wasn’t the only reason, but I was one of the early retirees, or the people that retired, because they could, and that was my second reason.

CRAWFORD: Great. Carol, I’d just like to thank you again for your time, and also for these wonderful documents that you shared, and for sharing your story. Thank you so much.

KANTERS: Thank you. Thank you. I enjoyed it.

[End]

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[1] Dr. Debbie Fu-Tai Tuan (1930-2022) joined the Department of Chemistry at Kent State University in 1965.
[2] National Science Foundation
[3] Environmental Protection Agency
[4] Occupational Safety and Health Administration