Karen Jones, Oral History

 

Recorded: October 8, 2020

Interviewed by: Liz Campion

Transcribed by the Kent State University Research & Evaluation Bureau

 

[Interviewer]: This is Liz Campion, May 4 Archivist, speaking on Thursday, October 8, 2020, at Kent State University Special Collections and Archives. As part of the Kent State Shootings Oral History Project, we are recording an interview over the telephone today. Could you please state your name for the recording?

 

[Karen Jones]: Karen Jones.

 

[Interviewer]: Thank you, Karen. [00:00:26] I would like to begin with some brief information about your background so we can get to know you a little bit better. Could you tell us where you were born and where you grew up?

 

[Karen Jones]: I was born in Zanesville, Ohio, and I grew up in Coshocton, Ohio.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay. And when did you first come to Kent State University?

 

[Karen Jones]: 1968, in, I guess, August.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay. And what brought you to Kent State?

 

[Karen Jones]: Well, it was between Kent State and Ohio University, and I was a tennis player, and a girl I had played against at Coshocton, she went to Kent State. She kind of recruited me, and they didn’t do that back then, but recruited me a little bit to go there and play tennis, which is what I wanted to do anyway. So, that’s why I mainly went. I was going into education, so either school would have been good for that.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay. [00:01:18] And that was my next question. How did you view the protests and the Vietnam War when you first arrived on campus?

 

[Karen Jones]: Well, we just kind of put up with them, I guess. I wasn’t a protester, I kind of saw their point of view, at that point, my high school boyfriend was in Vietnam. So, I could see kind of both sides of it, but we really didn’t pay a whole lot of attention to them, I mean we were still going to classes and everything, and just saw both sides, I guess.

 

[Interviewer]: You mentioned your high school boyfriend, was he drafted, or did he enlist?

 

[Karen Jones]: He enlisted, I believe. It’s been so long, some of these things are a little cloudy now.

 

[Interviewer]: Absolutely.

 

[Karen Jones]: But he did come to visit me at Kent State my freshman year, and this all happened my sophomore year, so, didn’t see that side of it when he was there.

 

[Interviewer]: Right. [00:02:19] How would you describe the prevailing attitudes or the moods among students in that spring of 1970?

 

[Karen Jones]: Really a little scared, I think. Just didn’t know what was going to happen, and what all was going on. I could tell you a little bit about that if you want, what I experienced.

 

[Interviewer]: Yes, absolutely, yeah.

 

[Karen Jones]: Okay. It all happened that weekend prior, the ROTC building was burned down. And I believe I was away at a tennis match, I think we had a match out of town. So, I didn’t see that part of it, but I got back Sunday, and I lived in Verder [Hall], is that still there?

 

[Interviewer]: I’m actually not sure if Verder is still here [editor’s clarification: as of 2023, the building Verder Hall still exists].

 

[Karen Jones]: Okay, it was across from the President’s house.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Karen Jones]: So, that Sunday evening, there was, the Guard was on campus and there was a Guard probably posted in his yard behind every tree. And then there was a tank going up the street in front of our dorm and this is something—I was from small town Ohio, and that just was something you didn’t see. Plus, the tear gas was blowing in the windows and we were hiding under the beds. I do remember that, because we didn’t know what was going to happen with the tank. So, that was Sunday night. And then it started Monday, of course. And another thing I do remember, the Guard were friendly. I mean, these were kids too, they were probably eighteen, nineteen years old. And I remember one girl put a little flower in the barrel of a gun, like a daisy or something. And we would talk to them around campus and stuff, so it wasn’t confrontational at that point. That was prior to that Monday, though.

 

But I went to class, and I was in the Education Building, which I don’t know if that’s there anymore, but it was toward the front of the campus and I was in class, and it was about noon. And the professor said there was going to be a problem and we needed to go back to our dorms. So, as we left the building, we walked out the door—boom, boom, boom, boom, I heard gunshots. And I think we probably caught the tail end of it, because there weren’t that many that I heard, maybe five or six. And so, we walked over to The Commons, I think that’s still there—right, The Commons?

 

[Interviewer]: Yes, yes.

 

[Karen Jones]: And we just kind of waited there, we didn’t know what to do, really. We were just all hanging around there, and I think for quite a while. And then a helicopter went over and said we had to get out of town, “Don’t take anything with you, just leave right now, get out of town.” So, we started walking back to my dorm, I don’t even remember who I was with now, to be honest, but we started walking back to Verder, and there was a street that kind of went down the hill at the top of The Commons there, toward the Memorial Gym. And the blood was running down the street, that’s one thing that’s vivid in my memory. The bodies were gone, the ambulances had left, so we had to have been on The Commons for quite a while. And so, we walked back to our dorms and just packed a little duffle and, of course, nobody’s going to Coshocton. So, I got hooked up with a couple friends from Cleveland. I remember this, I had this little white portable TV. Don’t ask me why, but I wasn’t leaving that little TV. So, I carried it, we walked up to [State] Route 43, right, that’s the highway down there?

 

[Interviewer]: Yep. Yeah.

 

[Karen Jones]: And we started hitchhiking up 43. And it was bumper to bumper, I mean, the cars weren’t moving anyway, so we walked quite a ways and then somebody gave us a ride up close to Cleveland, then I think one of their relatives came and picked us up and took us home.

 

And then we had to finish our classes from home. And I remember I had gymnastics and archery, because I was a major in health and physical education, and I wasn’t very good in gymnastics, so it was perfect for me to do it through the mail. So, we finished those, and then we were allowed back in July, I think it was, could’ve been June, but I’m thinking it was probably July, to get our stuff. And I remember, I had a goldfish in a bowl, and I left him I guess, and the cleaning lady had been feeding him the whole time. So, they still like the students, I guess. The water was dirty, but he was alive, I took him home. And went back in probably August or September for my junior year. So, those are the things that I kind of really remember.

 

[Interviewer]: To backtrack a little bit, I know that you had mentioned that you didn’t participate in any protests or organizations. Did you have any friends that were active in those protests leading up to the shootings?

 

[Karen Jones]: No, I did not. I didn’t even know anybody protesting, to be honest. I think a lot of people weren’t even from there—

 

[Interviewer]: Right.

 

[Karen Jones]: —I think they just came in.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:07:28] Was your family aware of what was occurring on campus the days leading up to Kent [State Shootings], and if so, did they communicate their feelings about that?

 

[Karen Jones]: No, they weren’t, because I do remember my mother called that Sunday night, and I didn’t tell her. She says, “Oh, what’s going on?” I go, “Oh, nothing, not much going on at all.” That’s when the tank was going up the street.

 

[Interviewer]: Oh my.

 

[Karen Jones]: So, I didn’t want her to worry or anything. And we really, I will say, we thought, I do remember this, we thought they had rubber bullets. We did not think the guns were loaded. I don’t know what the protesters thought, but—

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, we’ve heard that a lot. A lot of people saying that.

 

[Karen Jones]: Yeah, that’s we thought, so, I really didn’t think that would ever happen, I guess. I really didn’t think that.

 

[Interviewer]: Do you feel that the faculty and staff was transparent with what was occurring on campus before the shootings took place?

 

[Karen Jones]: Well, I really don’t remember any discussions or anything really, I mean the only thing I do remember was the one professor that Monday saying, “Go back to your dorms, there’s going to be trouble.” But I don’t remember any discussion about it. I mean, we just saw it and just kind of went along, I guess. We didn’t think it was going to result in that, I’m sure of that.

 

[Interviewer]: Right. Yeah, that’s something I don’t think anyone anticipated what had happened. [00:08:58] Can you talk about what it was like trying to get off campus? I know you had mentioned the traffic. Were people rushing back to their dorm rooms, or were people just hopping in cars and kind of leaving right away?

 

[Karen Jones]: I think it was both. There were several parking lots, people had cars, I didn’t have a car. But when that helicopter started going over, that’s when everybody started getting out quick. I guess we really, in thinking back, maybe we thought they were going to send more Guard or something, I don’t know. It was like they didn’t wasn’t us here, they didn’t even want us in town, they said, Get out of town. Don’t take anything with you, just leave. Get out of town. So, that made you almost think the local people were mad at us, too. We just tried to get out, I know I went back to the dorm because I had to get that TV.

 

[Interviewer]: I love that.

 

[Karen Jones]: And I’m sure I probably packed a little bag, I don’t know. I don’t even remember that part, but I’m sure I probably did.

 

[Interviewer]: Were there people or Guardsmen, or who was kind of rushing people in and out of the dorms to make sure that campus was clearing out?

 

[Karen Jones]: I don’t even remember seeing them after that. After you called, I’ve been thinking of things, and I almost think they kind of left right away. Because they weren’t—when I was walking back to the dorm and the blood was in the street and all, I don’t remember seeing any Guardsmen. So, I almost think after the shootings, they just left.

 

[Interviewer]: Right.

 

[Karen Jones]: But I don’t think anybody was pushing us, I probably would have remembered that, into the dorm or out of the dorm, or whatever. I think we were just all scared, we wanted to get out of there.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:10:48] You had mentioned—excuse me, I guess my question is you had mentioned that you had gone to The Commons after you had seen the blood. How soon there after do you remember or recall hearing the students that had been killed? Obviously, this isn’t a world of social media, so.

 

[Karen Jones]: Right, no. I went to The Commons from the classroom. I didn’t see the blood when we were all around The Commons, so—

 

[Interviewer]: Okay. Got it.

 

[Karen Jones]: I really didn’t know then, and where they were shot was on top of the hill, so I really didn’t even know what had actually happened. I mean, probably word of mouth was going around, but I really didn’t see that until when the helicopter said to get out of town, and we walked up there and saw that. I don’t even know if I knew how many kids were killed, I think I thought it was more than four at that point, because a lot were shot, we were hearing maybe twelve or something like that. So, I really didn’t know who was killed or who was shot, I think I thought it was more than four at that point.

 

[Interviewer]: Right. [00:12:04] And what were the days and weeks like after May 4 for you, in regards to just kind of accepting that this happened on your campus, but also how was it, doing your classes from home?

 

[Karen Jones]: Well, like we know, no internet and all that, so everything was through the mail. So, I mean, it was probably mostly questionnaires and maybe a test, but you probably had the books to do, so that wasn’t bad. But I think I kind of remember, I can’t speak for anybody else, but I kind of felt like a black sheep or something, like, Why did it happen at Kent? I was there and people just didn’t look very kindly on us, no matter what you did, I guess. But yeah, I kind of felt bad that now we’ve got a black name on us for being there and for it happening at Kent.

 

[Interviewer]: Absolutely.

 

[Karen Jones]: I felt bad because I know it took a long time for Kent State to recover from it. I went back, I didn’t hesitate to go back, I wanted to go back and finish out my last two years. And I’ve always been proud to say I was from Kent, but I know, especially maybe the first ten years after, if you said you were from Kent State, well that’s the first—you could see it in people’s eyes, that’s the first thing they thought of back then.

 

[Interviewer]: That actually leads me to my next question, [00:13:30] prior to the shootings, what was your sense of how community members perceived Kent State versus the aftermath of the shootings?

 

[Karen Jones]: Well, I never felt like the city people didn’t like us, I don’t think. I mean they probably didn’t like some of the partying that went on. A lot of people lived in houses around the campus, which I did my junior year when I came back. So, I mean they were still renting out houses to us when we came back. So, I don’t think they held it against everybody, I think they were pretty accepting of us coming back. I don’t remember any incident where they—I’m sure there were some, probably, but I don’t remember anything. I think they pretty much accepted us, accepted it as a one-time thing, maybe, but overall, I know the whole country, they don’t see that though, it’s just a bunch of “rabble-rousers” but most people weren’t like that.

 

[Interviewer]: How did your family feel about you wanting to go back to Kent after that had happened?

 

[Karen Jones]: They were okay with it, I don’t remember them saying, No, you’re not going back, or I don’t want you to go back, or anything like that. I was home the whole summer then, and everything quieted down, I guess you could say. And other colleges—I just talked to somebody today, and I said I had this interview and her daughter went to OU [Ohio University] and she’s the same age as me, and they thought there was going to be riots there, but after the shootings, I think that kind of shut down all the other campuses maybe, because they didn’t want that to happen at other places.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah. I’ve been told a handful of campuses, particularly in Ohio, had closed down a day or two after for that exact reason.

 

[Karen Jones]: Yeah, nothing happened as far as I know at any of the other ones. Now, I don’t know if you want to talk about the year after the anniversary.

 

[Interviewer]: Yes, yes, absolutely.

 

[Karen Jones]: Okay, again, I was on the tennis team, we were out of town. I think were at Miami U[niversity], I kind of remember that, and we were worried, because I guess the 4^th probably fell on a Tues—or, yeah, probably—

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, I think it was—

 

[Karen Jones]: —it was probably the prior weekend, and that’s probably when they would get things going, if they were. And we were kind of worried that it was going to happen again. I do remember that. And I think there were some protests, minor, but everything sizzled, nothing ever happened that I know of, the following year. And then after that, it was pretty much done. If anything was going to happen, we thought it would probably be on the anniversary. So, as far as I know, because I wasn’t there, but as far as I know, it was pretty peaceful. They probably had like a little memorial service, I suppose.

 

[Interviewer]: Did you attend any future commemorations after that?

 

[Karen Jones]: I went back once, and I was trying to think, it was probably the twenty-five years—I actually planned on going back this year.

 

[Interviewer]: Oh, yeah, what a year.

 

[Karen Jones]: I had planned on it, but I went once, the twenty-fifth [anniversary], and it was okay, but it’s kind of like it’s in the past for me. But it was nice, I think a couple of the shooting victims did speak at that time.

 

And is there a Dwayne, or a Wayne? He’s the one that was paralyzed.

 

[Interviewer]: Dean Kahler.

 

[Karen Jones]: Yeah, I think he was there. Actually, I think he might be a professor at OU [Ohio University] or something. But yeah, I think he spoke, and maybe a few other ones. So, yeah, but I only went back once. Like I said, I was going to go this year.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:17:30] Is there anything about the, is there anything you’d like to share about how those experiences have affected you over the years?

 

[Karen Jones]: I mean I got over it, you have to live and learn, I guess. And I felt bad for the families of the murdered kids, especially the two that were just on their way back from class, I mean, that could’ve been me if he had let us out a little bit earlier or something. So, I’m sure that was very hard for—well, it was hard for the other two too, I’m sure, but. No, I mean, every May 4^th, I’ve thought about it. I haven’t gone back, but I have thought about it and just thought it was just so sad that it had to happen, I guess. But I realized like the National Guard, I mean, they were kids, too. They just reacted, I guess, so—

 

You know what? I don’t know if you’re interviewing any of them, but I’ve always wanted to hear their side of it, and I never really heard it, I don’t think. Do you have any of them scheduled for an interview?

 

[Interviewer]: I personally do not. What we’re trying to do right now is get some legal representatives from the trials to do some interviews, just to get a better idea of both sides. Obviously—

 

[Karen Jones]: Yeah, I always wanted to hear their side of it, but I think they were scared, too. I do.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, and we’ve heard that the age with the National Guardsmen’s and the students.

 

[Karen Jones]: Like I said, the few days prior, they were just walking around campus, and they were talking to everybody and everything, and they were young, too, at least the ones we saw.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, and you didn’t feel threatened when you had seen them, did you?

 

[Karen Jones]: No, no. Well, we thought they were rubber bullets, anyway.

 

[Interviewer]: Right.

 

[Karen Jones]: I probably didn’t even think the guns were loaded, to be honest, leading up to that prior week. We just didn’t comprehend that something like that would happen, that was the whole thing.

 

[Interviewer]: Were you aware that a rally or protest was going to occur that day?

 

[Karen Jones]: I think I was, yeah. I think I was, because when the prof said to leave, I think I—yeah, I think I knew there was a rally going on. I didn’t know what it would be like, but yeah. And I think they were on The Commons first and then they ran up the hill, and then the Guard followed them up the hill. So, I think it was on The Commons there.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah. [00:20:03] Well, is there anything you’d like to discuss that we haven’t covered today?

 

[Karen Jones]: No, I think I’ve told you everything I can remember, pretty much.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay. Perfect. Well I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us today and participating in our Oral History Project, and I just want to thank you again for sharing you story.

 

[Karen Jones]: Thank you, Liz.

 

[Interviewer]: Thank you.

 

 

[End of interview]

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