Dalene Forgan and Jim Vincent, Oral History

 

Recorded: August 8, 2022

Interviewed by: Liz Campion

Transcribed by the Kent State University Research & Evaluation Bureau

 

[Interviewer]: This is Liz Campion, May 4 Archivist, speaking on Monday, August 8, 2022, at Kent State University Special Collections and Archives. As part of the Kent State Shootings Oral History Project, I will be conducting a joint interview today. Could you please state your names for the recording?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Dalene Forgan. [00:00:23]

 

[Jim Vincent]: Jim Vincent.

 

[Interviewer]: Thank you. I would like to begin with some brief information about your background so we can get to know you both a little better. Could you tell us both where you were born and where you grew up? [00:00:35]

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Yes. I grew up in Jackson Township [Ohio] and went to school at Jackson all twelve years.

 

[Interviewer]: Then Jim?

 

[Jim Vincent]: And I was born in Canton [Ohio] and attended Perry schools down there, so we actually lived probably five to seven miles from each other, but we met at Kent, Stark campus.

 

[Interviewer]: And when did you first come to Kent State University? [00:01:06]

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Our freshman year, we were down at the Kent State branch down in Stark County and then, sophomore year, came up here to be here [Kent Campus].

 

[Interviewer]: Okay and what year did you start?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: So, that would’ve been—

 

[Jim Vincent]: Sixty-eight.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Well, that’s when we started.

 

[Jim Vincent]: We started in the fall of ’68.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: But then to come up here.

 

[Jim Vincent]: To come up here—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: It would be the following year.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Sixty-nine.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Sixty-nine.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay, and what bought you both to Kent State? [00:01:32]

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Well, it was affordable and because the branch was there and we had started out there. I think that was just the transition up to here where we wanted to, to be more on our own and up on a campus situation.

 

[Jim Vincent]: And I, I was never a very good student in K-12 and high school, and I later found out that I’m dyslexic and I didn’t know about that at that time, so I struggled in school and my parents didn’t think that I would ever be able to graduate from college. So, they said, “Well, you could go to a local facility, one of the colleges or universities and stay in home and we would handle the tuition. But the extra expenses, they didn’t think, they thought it would just be throwing money away, so I went to, to the campus and then, met Dalene there and when she—she went up earlier. Actually, I flunked out for a semester, was it?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: I don’t know. A quarter.

 

[Jim Vincent]: A quarter, yeah it was quarters back then, yeah. So, I was out for a quarter, but then, I came back in and then, when she moved up here, I put more effort into my schooling so that I could be with her and then, I came up like the following quarter.

 

[Interviewer]: A nice fresh start then.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yes, right.

 

[Interviewer]: What was your major when you were students?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Bachelor of science and education and my major was English and my minor was psychology.

 

[Jim Vincent]: And I was an education major as well and speech was my major and educational media was my minor.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:03:31] How did you view the protests in the Vietnam War when you first arrived on Kent’s campus?

 

[Jim Vincent]: Do you mean before, when we first arrived that weekend?

 

[Interviewer]: Before the shootings took place, yeah. So, it could be in ’68, ’69—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: I don’t know that I informed myself very much about them. I wasn’t involved in them. I was aware of the politics of the day, and I wasn’t for the war, but I didn’t involve myself that much I don’t believe.

 

[Jim Vincent]: We, yeah, we were concerned about the war of course and we had people that we had gone to school with that were serving and we didn’t support what was going on over there, but we weren’t active in that and what-

 

[Dalene Forgan]: We were worried because you might get drafted.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Right.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: And we went through that whole situation where we had to wait and see what his lottery number came up and we were very nervous about that, of course, and we did talk about what, what would we do if he, we don’t know what we would do if he had to go and so, we were just felt very fortunate that he had a high enough lottery number. It was pretty close, but—

 

[Interviewer]: I was going to ask, do you remember what your lottery number was?

 

[Jim Vincent]: It was 183.

 

[Interviewer]: Everyone always knows their number.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, 183.

 

[Interviewer]: You won’t forget it. Could you—

 

[Jim Vincent]: But we lived in, as all of us did back at the time, it was a very troubling time because we experienced as youngsters the assassination of our president [John F. Kennedy], of his brother [Robert F. Kennedy], of Martin Luther King [Jr.], other leaders like that. So, it was a difficult time. We hadn’t, until that time, in our history that we were aware of, we never really experienced that kind of violence towards our leaders. And then, with the Civil Rights Movement going on at that time too, so it was, there was an uneasiness, not unlike what’s going on today, but it was an uneasiness that we weren’t used to being young people, you know, eighteen years old or even less. So, when we saw our friends and family members going off to war, in something some far way, we had no idea where Vietnam even was and Cambodia and Laos and all those little countries over there, we had no idea where they were at. So, you put no knowledge in with hatred and violence, it really makes you uneasy about the future and about what you had to do. So, as Dalene said, we had thought maybe we would go to Canada if it came down to that and leave and fortunately, it never did get that part, but unfortunately, we had to go through more violence to get to that.

 

[Interviewer]: Absolutely. One of the things you mentioned were the parallels from then to today and I think one of the important things is documenting history of May 4 and a lot of people are seeing these parallels, but this is why these stories are important to tell. To kind of piggyback off of what was happening, the political tensions and the tragedies of these leaders in our country that were killed, [00:07:13] could you describe the prevailing attitudes or moods among the students in the spring of 1970 prior to the shootings?

 

[Jim Vincent]: I don’t—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: I don’t remember.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, I don’t remember many of our people or the people that I associated with were real active, they weren’t out to change the world. I had one roommate, back at that time, we lived in small group housing and we had four people in my room and there was one who was a very intelligent guy, but he was kind of off the wall and he tended to be a little bit more into the protest movement, that type of thing. But not a, you know which one—Dave, yeah.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Would he talk about it?

 

[Jim Vincent]: He didn’t talk about it very much, but he was the kind that would attend some of the meetings and things like that. But we, I don’t think we ever associated with people that were very involved with that. So, I—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Not vocal or anything.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah. So, we heard about protests going on like in California or other campuses, but it didn’t hit home that it was going to happen here. 

 

[Interviewer]: That was my next question was [00:08:35] how politically involved you were or friends were? Was your family aware of the protests that started to take place on campus and did any of them communicate their feelings about what was happening, whether that was on campus or across the nation with the student protests?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: You mean just generally speaking? I don’t remember anything specific being said. My family was conservative. I grew up in a conservative family and I think I had mixed emotions because I saw the other side of the story and so, I think it was best that- and my brother-in-law, he went to Coast Guard Academy and he ended up going over in Vietnam. He was in charge of a boat over there and so, I knew that conservative viewpoint. But yet, there were questions in my mind whether we were over there for the right reasons, but I wouldn’t say that my family discussed that a lot.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, my family was conservative as well, although my parents at that time were going through a divorce and that kind of took more pressing-

 

[Interviewer]: Probably some attention off of what was happening.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, yeah, off of other things. So, we happened to be home that weekend and I’m not sure why we came home, we just—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: We tended to come home quite a bit on the weekends.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: And not stay up here.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Right, so we were home. I was with my mother, but I remember for some reason, and I don’t know why my father was there and he came in after the ROTC building was burned and he told me. I was in bed when it happened and he told me and he said, “They’re starting to riot up there too.” You know, that kind of thing and I knew not to argue with my parents, it wouldn’t get me anywhere and I’m that kind of guy. I don’t argue, I don’t get too involved in much of anything. So, he told me that. That was the first that I became aware of it, but then, I could, back then, you didn’t have the internet so, we just listened to the radio or tv reports and got little bits and pieces that you could. So, I tried to listen to that and find out what was going on. So, of course, I think that that’s when we wanted to come back after, just to see what it was like because they said that the National Guard was coming and that there were helicopters, there were guys with guns and tanks and all that kind of stuff. So, we wanted to see that just to experience it more than anything. Not that we were going to try to stop anything, but we just wanted to experience, is that correct?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Yeah, I would say that’s right, yeah.  Because I don’t remember how I found out that. But you probably told me if your father told you first.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: And I’m sure it was on the local radio.

 

[Interviewer]: I was going to ask. One of the questions, you know with media today, we have social media, we have it on newspapers and the news, [00:12:01] was it as frequent do you feel learning about these protests that were happening across the country, as it is today? I almost feel like every channel you flip through, you see something—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: It seems instantaneous that we know when things are happening. Whereas back then, we just—

 

[Jim Vincent]: And back then, things were biased and we knew you had to hear what ABC, NBC, and CBS told you and that was it. If you’re lucky, you had NPR and you had PBS and unless it was a radio station and we didn’t listen to anything that would have that. So, it was biased. Nowadays, everyone has a phone, everyone can video, everyone can talk to people and you actually can see what’s going on at that time.

 

[Interviewer]: Absolutely.

 

[Jim Vincent]: And then, we heard it hours and hours and hours later.  So, it’s not that same. Nothing’s the same.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:12:56] Do you both remember the environment in your classes in the spring of 1970 prior to the shootings? Were professors talking about what was happening on campus? Was there kind of, could you feel something was kind of brewing on campus?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: I can’t say that I ever did.

 

[Jim Vincent]: No, I didn’t either.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: None of my classes. That I don’t remember any professor ever discussing it.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Now, the one psychology class I was in, Bill Schroeder sat in front of me.

 

[Interviewer]: Do you remember anything specific about Bill Schroeder being in that class? Do you have any memories of him?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: My memories of him were he was very quiet. He would just come in and sit down and my most vivid memory is the, his belt that he always wore that he had drawn peace signs on it.

 

[Interviewer]: Wow. That’s pretty moving.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: It is.

 

[Interviewer]: Especially in hindsight.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: It is.

 

[Interviewer]: Wow.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Yeah, but we, we didn’t talk at length or anything, but I remember him being a quieter voice and unassuming type person.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:14:08] Prior to the shootings, what was your sense of how local Kent community members perceived the students?

 

[Jim Vincent]: Students weren’t very well-liked back then. I guess for various reasons. I didn’t think we were that bad, but younger people in general, across the United States and probably around the world were not looked upon favorably. So, was Kent any different than the rest? I don’t think so. They were just a small conservative little town that I often thought would be a nice place to come back to after I graduated.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Raise a family.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Raise a family that can—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Bob White was a mayor, I remember Bob White was the mayor [editor’s clarification: LeRoy Satrom was the mayor of Kent in 1970]. And you know—

 

[Jim Vincent]: But they would tolerate us.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Yeah, I think—

 

[Jim Vincent]: You know, you go downtown, or you go shopping or the restaurants, whatever, they would tolerate you. They weren’t, to us, they weren’t overly mean—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Antagonistic.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Antagonistic, yeah, that’s a good way of putting it. And we weren’t real bold in our dress or our—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Right.

 

[Jim Vincent]: —facial hair or—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: No, I dress, I think we both dressed, now you had longer hair, but I dressed very conservatively. I could never be looked at and they thought, Oh, she was a hippie.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: That wasn’t me. I never go with the trends, I just go with however—

 

[Interviewer]: It’s interesting to hear how important kind of the fashion was and what it spoke such volumes to people.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Oh, yeah, they labeled you by the length of your hair and what, I had a mustache, so that was a negative—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: And longer hair too at the time.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Not real long, but—

 

[Jim Vincent]: Right, it wasn’t as long as yours now, but it was longer. But, and our dress wasn’t extreme either.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: You know, you’d wear bellbottoms, but I didn’t have that.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, it wasn’t the hippie—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Yeah, the hippie type look or anything.

 

[Jim Vincent]: It was just the bellbottoms then they got old and they would drag on the ground like everybody else and I wore sandals. I wore sandals all the time. I did. I loved those sandals. Still do.

 

[Interviewer]: To kind of shift gears, [00:16:22] can you tell us about your experiences during the periods of April 30^th to May 4^th and kind of walk us through your days down to May 4?

 

[Jim Vincent]: You want to start or?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Yeah, you go ahead because—

 

[Interviewer]: —that’s a big one.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Well, April 30^th, I think that’s the day that Nixon said that we were expanding if I remember correctly. And I couldn’t believe that we, we all had hoped that it was slowing down, that we were going to get out of this. There was that divide and that was about the only way that we could see an end to it, the war and all that, and the divisiveness of it. So, the 30^th came about and it was heavy depression kind of thing, my gosh, here we go again. He’s going to keep going and we’re never going to get out of this war and that keeps on. But like I said previously, we went home that weekend and most likely, we were together on Friday night, the first, I can’t remember exactly. And nothing, we didn’t hear about it. Once again, we didn’t have the media coverage and it was just, if it was, there was something going on downtown and unfortunately, that wasn’t an extremely unusual occurrence, not that fires broke out all the time, but we had a lot of kids going to the bars and we used to attend some of those ourselves and it wasn’t a dangerous situation, it wasn’t unusual, it was just a lot of kids and it was a nice spring weekend. So, then, I didn’t think too much about it when I heard that, but then, the next day is when, when it really turned serious on us with the burning of the ROTC [Building] and, and the reports that the firemen couldn’t do their jobs because the kids were cutting the hoses and throwing rocks and all that kind of stuff. So, that disturbed me because, like we had said, we came from very conservative families and I always thought that, you know, the United States is something to be proud of and I wouldn’t do anything against it and I would support it as best as I could, so anything that would lead me to think that it was, I was going against the United States, whether the police, the fire people, the mayors, the governor, whoever, although that day, has changed my perspective on things. But that Saturday, when we heard about that and my father woke me up, I was pretty shocked and then, the Sunday, we came back then.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Yeah, Sunday night we came back to go to classes. That’s what we did. I mean, I was even going up that week. I mean, we were just going to classes like we usually did—

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, we always did. Yeah.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: —nothing seemed different.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Right.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: You know, you’d hear things, but to us, that was our job was just go to class and that’s—

 

[Jim Vincent]: Was that Saturday night that the helicopters were around or was that Sunday?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: No, it was Sunday.

 

[Jim Vincent]: That was Sunday night, okay.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: That’s a very vivid memory for me.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, so we got up here on Sunday and we just walked around the campus and saw what was going on, but we didn’t venture too far out. Now, Sunday night, my one roommate who was a little more political than the other three of us, he went down to protest by the front gates there and he got pepper sprayed or gassed and he came back and relayed his stories to us, so it was interesting, like a car wreck was interesting.

 

[Interviewer]: Can’t look away.

 

[Jim Vincent]: You can’t look away, you don’t want to hear it, you don’t want to see it, but you know it’s there. And then Sunday, or Monday then—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Well, Sunday night is when my most vivid memory is.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Oh, yeah.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: I was, you know, we were on the—which floor? Third floor?

 

[Jim Vincent]: Third floor.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Third floor, I think that’s it. And it was rather frightening to me, it gave me chills, because the helicopters flying around, with searchlights, and I’ve never forgotten that memory. In my mind, I can still see it and it was so concerning to me and I thought, We’re at a college campus, how can this be happening? It was almost like a disbelief, I think, with the whole situation.

 

[Jim Vincent]: And they wanted us to stay in the dorms.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Yes. And I think they even—didn’t they announce that over loudspeakers?

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, they had—Small Group Housing was four small dorms and then they had a common area among those four and she was in Humphrey [Hall] and I was in Musselman [Hall] [00:21:33] and we were supposed to, or we didn’t have to, but we went outside quite a bit because once again, it was kind of a nice weekend, weather-wise. And when we would go out, the helicopters would go and they would shine the lights down on us to intimidate us and make us go back inside. I don’t know why. In my mind, back then, I know now, but when we were young, I couldn’t figure out why they wouldn’t let us come out and congregate in the middle because we needed to support each other and talk it over and things like that and they were shutting that down and it didn’t seem right.

 

[Interviewer]: I’m glad you brought up the helicopters because one of the things I was curious, when you came back to campus on Sunday, [00:22:24] do you recall seeing any of the military vehicles on campus or kind of what were they doing, were there, was there a lot where you were at? Can you kind of describe those sights?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: I don’t remember them to tell you, myself. I don’t, do you, hon?

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yes.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Coming in? because I don’t.

 

[Jim Vincent]: I think we—I think my parents brought me up and your parents brought you up. Yeah. Yeah, we drove around. I said, “Let’s drive through there as much as we could.” Because I wanted to see it and yes, there were Guardsmen just about every area and you saw other forms of artillery, if you want to call it that, but weapons and things and just that presence that this is where you’re going to school and the military is taking over. Something happens in foreign countries, that doesn’t happen here.

 

[Interviewer]: I imagine that was jarring.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, it doesn’t happen here. And I’m sure it was worse for our parents to drop us off in that kind of a situation. Your—here my little son or little daughter and we’re going to drop them off in the middle of a war zone, so to speak, and we’re going to drive away and say goodbye. That had to be very difficult for them and I hadn’t really thought of that—because it was difficult enough for us.

 

[Interviewer]: Right, I mean, to be outside of your dorm or small housing and to see kind of these army personnel that you’re hearing about this war in Vietnam and spreading here, and here, right outside your door on a campus, a college campus to say the least.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Now, the thing is, we didn’t think anyone would shoot. Not real bullets.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: And I don’t think any—I don’t think our parents would’ve never, never would’ve dropped us off if they thought. I think they thought probably it would be handled and we would just go up and go about our routine of going to college and—

 

[Jim Vincent]: Right, and if there were radical kind of people, they might get shot with rubber bullets or something where it hurts, yes, but not, not enough to kill anybody. So, I don’t think that was even a thought.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: I think that was what we heard was that those are rubber bullets. Those aren’t real bullets.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, right.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: They’re not going t— they would never do that to college kids.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, that’s what we heard that day on the 4^th.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Right.

 

[Interviewer]: So, going into that morning, and seeing all of that, did you, were you hesitant about going to class or was it, again, just a regular day, outside of seeing these kind of military vehicles throughout the campus?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: I don’t remember being hesitant. I just remember, Well, this is what I have to do. I have a—it was probably an 11:55 and I was in the gym. It was a gym class. So, I just went to class and, because that was my job was to do that. Now he, you did it—

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, I didn’t go, I had one class scheduled for that morning, I think it was at ten o’clock and—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Was yours cancelled, or no?

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, it was cancelled.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: See, mine was not. Mine was never cancelled. We actually had the class. So—

 

[Jim Vincent]: I walked to my class and it, there was something on the doors saying class had been cancelled today. And then, there were people passing out flyers all over the place. “Come at noon to The Commons” and “We’re going to stop the war in Vietnam.” So, I thought to myself, I’m going to go just out of curiosity and I said, Well, we’ve gone this far, let’s see what happens here, not that I wanted to protest and fight and you know, and do anything like that, but I was curious to see how this whole thing—because you’ve heard about it on other countries or other colleges. UCLA and Berkeley and all these kind of things, so I thought, Well, this is probably as close as we’re going to get here in Ohio, so I’m going to go see what it was.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: So, I went to class and you went and observed.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yes, so I got there about fifteen minutes earlier, about a quarter-till [noon], I would guess.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Was it that late?

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, and there were probably a few hundred people up by the [Victory] Bell and then there were others scattered around, so I didn’t go up by the Bell. You could see there were—that’s where the main group of protesters were and then, the other end where the ROTC Building was burned down was where the National Guard had set up their camp or whatever you want to call it. And I stood off to the side closer to the gym, underneath a tree, and I just stood there while people started filling in more and more. And then, the protesters started chanting some and they rang the Bell and they started chanting some other things and somebody had a microphone and a speaker and they were making speeches, too. And, shortly after that, it must have been about noon then, the National Guard told us, “This is illegal, or unauthorized gathering, yes, you have to disperse,” and that kind of thing. So, I just stood there. No one seemed to be moving. I said, Well, okay, if no one’s going to move, let’s see what happens next. But then, the National Guard got, somebody got in a jeep and he came around and said, “You must move. You must disperse right now.” And then, protesters started swearing and they would throw some rocks at him and things like that. That’s what really got me emotionally because like I had said earlier, I was very, very good boy and I didn’t do anything to buck the government, or my parents, or any authorities, or whatever, and I saw all these people that it was growing too, the numbers at that time, I saw all these people that, you know, they’re swearing and they’re throwing rocks and it hit me emotionally and it bothered me. So, shortly after that, the guy in the jeep went back and you could see the soldiers putting on their bayonets and starting to march up that way.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: In formation.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, in formation. And that really got the protesters riled. But by that time, I’m not a good judge of the number of people, but I would guess maybe a thousand people. I don’t know for sure.

 

[Interviewer]: Which is an impressive amount.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, it is. And that’s not counting the, well, I guess that’s probably counting the people on the side like me too. And the soldiers didn’t know who was there to protest and raise a ruckus and who was just there to observe. I think a lot of us were just there to observe. I don’t think that many real, hardcore protesters were there, that many. I think it was a small number.

 

[Interviewer]: Up until this point, [00:29:57] did you think that maybe the guns were loaded or that there was that possibility?

 

[Jim Vincent]: I did.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Jim Vincent]: But the few comments that I heard, I think I was in the minority. But I can’t see soldiers coming onto a campus where there could be violence, not having real bullets.

 

So, I thought that, yeah, they’re going to have guns and real bullets in there. At that time then, they started shooting, firing tear gas and the wind was drifting our way too, so I got it and I remember our—my one roommate saying that you always get a handkerchief to put over, try to get it wet and filter some of that. Well, I had a handkerchief, but I didn’t have water or anything to do it, so I thought, I better get moving, too. If there—those crazy guys would go out and pick it up and throw it back. And I always thought or heard that those were hot, too. 

 

[Interviewer]: Very hot, yeah.

 

[Jim Vincent]: I can’t imagine doing that. So, this whole thing was just so surreal to me. But I didn’t want to keep breathing in that tear gas, so I kind of followed the crowd. I didn’t know where to go. And the troops were coming behind me, or beside me, so I just kind of followed everybody and I went up—our groups divided: one went left of Taylor [Hall] and the other went right of Taylor [Hall]. I went right of Taylor. And went up over the hill and they were still coming like—who are those guys? They keep coming at me and I went over the top of, past the Pagoda, over the hill. There was an embankment, went down the hill and I think there was a practice football field at that time. And then there was a parking lot a little bit further. So, I went down, I went to the top of the hill and I thought, Well, they’re not going to come down here. They’re not going to chase us. They’re just trying to get us away from the hill and from Taylor Hall and break us up. And it looked like they had actually broken the group, you know, the protesters up because they had so many people, so many soldiers coming at you and so much tear gas and that kind of stuff. I thought they were just going to kind of chase us around and that was it.

 

I went about halfway down the hill and they stopped and they knelt down and they were aiming at my way. I say, “Holy crap. I’m going to—this is nuts. I’m getting out of here.” So, I took off down the hill towards that practice field and then, they got up and marched away. I said, “Okay, they’ve given up then.” So, I started going back up the hill again and I got about halfway up and then I heard the firing, the shootings. And I took off running again as fast as I could. Probably wasn’t the smartest thing, probably should’ve just fallen down on the ground, but I took off running, then they didn’t seem to go after me, thank goodness.

 

So, people said, “Oh, those aren’t real bullets.” And I said to no one in particular, “Those have to be real bullets. Why else would they shoot them?” And as I was trying to gain composure and see where I was at, I saw somebody laying over there and I think it might have been Jeffrey Miller, I don’t know. Somebody was laying down, there was one person beside him, and I started to see blood, so, I said, “Oh, boy. This isn’t what I want.” But then, it stopped, and I could see the Guard marching away and I started going up on the hill again and I was like, I said to myself, no one in particular, because I was by myself, said, “Why am I going back up there again? If they’re going to shoot once, they’ll shoot again.” And shortly after, I said, somebody said, “Go back to your dorms. Go now. Leave, get out of here. Something’s going to happen.” I don’t know who that was, but—

 

[Interviewer]: I wonder if that was Glenn Frank talking to the students.

 

[Jim Vincent]: It might have been. Yeah. Might have been and I said, “Yeah, that’s probably good advice.” So, that’s what I did at that time. And I looked over and a couple people, there were two, two pods of people on the ground, I mean, surrounding people on the ground. So, I said, I don’t know how many they shot, but I was getting out of there.

 

[Interviewer]: Do you recall directly after the shootings, was it silent, were there screams, can you kind of recall that moment after you realized?

 

[Jim Vincent]: It was mostly quiet, the majority, there were a couple people, there was one girl screaming and then, there were a couple saying, “We need help,” or, “Somebody get an ambulance.” Or something like that. They were trying to get direction and then, I heard somebody say, “Go back to your dorm.”

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Jim Vincent]: So, that’s, I would say most of it was quiet because people were stunned.

 

[Interviewer]: Absolutely.

 

[Jim Vincent]: I didn’t know what to do.

 

[Interviewer]: And, and you were coming out of class—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Well, I was told. We were in the middle of class in the gymnasium and, all of a sudden, I just remembered them saying frantically, “Everybody needs to get out of here. You need to get dressed and get out of here.” So, they stopped class. I changed my clothes, and then I came outside and I didn’t know what had gone on, and so I started walking around and kind of listening to people to try to figure out what had just happened and I was walking up around the hill and everything over by the gym and, and I remember I think it was probably Glenn Frank who—I think they dubbed them field marshals [editor’s clarification: they were most commonly referred to as faculty marshals] later on or something and then, there were—and I stopped or something and came by him and he said, “You need to go back to your dorm. You need to be safe. It’s not safe.” And he said, “We don’t want anything else to happen. You need to head back to your dorm.” Which is what I did.

 

[Interviewer]: I’ve heard the plea before of Glenn Frank and I, the, to hear it in his voice is really moving and I couldn’t imagine, again, this is happening on your campus. I mean, who was going to expect something to that gravity to happen? [00:36:54]

 

Can you describe what campus was like a few hours after? I know that they told you to go back and I know that they kind of shut down pretty quickly. Can you describe how quickly you got out of there?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Pretty quickly, because I went back to the dorm and I remember people starting to get their things together and we didn’t know when we’d be back or anything. I don’t remember what all I took, but I don’t know how I got in contact with my mom, but my mom came up, she and my roommate’s mother came up and came up to get us and I would say that happened within a couple hours. So, it was pretty quickly that we got out of there.

 

[Jim Vincent]: I was in—my situation—a little bit different because my, like I had mentioned, my parents were going through a divorce, so I didn’t know how to get ahold of my father and my mother didn’t drive. She worked out of our home, she did hair and things like that. So, I didn’t have a way home and we didn’t even meet up afterwards.

 

[Interviewer]: Which was my next question. Okay.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah. We never met up, you just left with your mom.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Yeah, I think my mom came, said, “We’re leaving. We need to get you out girls out of here.”

 

[Jim Vincent]: So, I—couple people I knew—Steve was in Massillon, and he was, he might have gotten me home, but make long story short, I couldn’t get a ride home, so I knew I was going to have to hitchhike, and I knew that probably wasn’t a real good move with—

 

[Interviewer]: Seemed common at the time.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, it was.

 

[Interviewer]: I’ve heard this a lot now.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Oh, yeah.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: I hitchhiked once when I—

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, you know, hitchhiking was very common at that time, but not during a time when there was those feelings.

 

[Interviewer]: Absolutely.

 

[Jim Vincent]: And most people are conservative, and they didn’t like long-haired, too, if you were over twenty-five or whatever. So, fortunately though, I packed up whatever I could put in like my backpack and took off. So, I left just about everything up in the dorm, not knowing what I’d do. I took my books, I think, and went down to by Mike’s [Place] there on [Ohio State Route] 261 and started hitching out there and finally got a couple rides home and that’s how it was. So, it took, it took a few hours to get thirty miles down to Canton, but it was real quiet in the dorms.

 

[Interviewer]: Probably a ghost town.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, people were all over the place. There were a lot of activity, but it was so quiet. People didn’t talk to each other very much.

 

[Interviewer]: Now, obviously the news wasn’t instant, but [00:39:55] do you recall when you found out that four students were killed and that nine were wounded? Kind of what your reactions were and how you found out?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: I can’t remember.

 

[Jim Vincent]: No, I just remember I believed it.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

 

[Jim Vincent]: I, yeah, because—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: We didn’t, yeah—

 

[Jim Vincent]: We believed it. We saw them there. I don’t know of what else it was though. I think we were still in shock about things.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Yeah, I think it was all, you’re in such disbelief.

 

[Interviewer]: Do you remember when you found out that one of them was Bill [Schroeder], a fellow classmate?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: I don’t remember that.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah. It’s a lot going on, so. [00:40:43] What were the days and weeks like after May 4? Did you continue classes at home? I know that there were people talking about remote classwork. Did you mail in classwork?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: I think it was the gamut. I think we had to work it out with our professors. I think some professors—

 

[Jim Vincent]: Some gave us automatic A’s.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: I don’t remember that.

 

[Interviewer]: That sounds nice.

 

[Jim Vincent]: I did. Boy, she says that, but I was, on the border. I had spent ten quarters on probation. I was slowly getting back up from when I flunked out, slowly, but that helped me because I ended up with a four point. But that’s just because a couple of profs just said, “A” right off the bat for showing up. Others gave you like a paper, you have to write a paper and I’d write it and then, she would help me do it, do that.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: And some, we sent to the professors, I remember, depending on—some had us come, a couple times, I believe, to their houses to finish up. I had [unintelligible] for a course, but yeah, it was whatever the professors came up with because it seemed to be more like an individual thing with them. There wasn’t any certain policy that they had to follow.

 

[Interviewer]: You guys got a taste of what schoolwork during the [COVID-19] pandemic looks like before us.

 

[Jim Vincent]: That’s right. Whether we wanted to or not.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:42:18] Was there any hesitancy with either one of you about coming back to Kent the following quarter? Quarters, yes. Were you nervous about coming back to Kent? Was there any point that you kind of said to yourself, I’m not going back?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: No. I think I was pretty determined to come back and finish what I started and didn’t feel fearful coming back when I did come. You know, months had passed so we were able to come back that fall.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, I don’t think we thought it was going to be very politically active because of what happened the last time. Now, I don’t know if that was a correct assumption or not, but we knew it will forever be in the public eye and so, if things aren’t going to happen, they wouldn’t happen here. If they are going to happen, it would be someplace else. That was my thought at that time. So, yeah, I came back and like I said, I finally got up above a two point, or something, so I was, I had visions of maybe graduating, so I thought I could do it. I wanted to come back. I don’t know what our parents thought though.

 

[Interviewer]: Which was my next question was.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, if they were reluctant or not.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: I don’t remember my parents being that way. We didn’t have any discussions that I can recollect that, I think back then, it was kind of everybody wait, wait and see and then, however, how the college is going to handle it, that kind of situation.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, I think you’re right. It was—the political leaders weren’t very good, in our opinions. From the mayor to the governor to—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: [Jim] Rhodes and [Sylvester] Del Corso—

 

[Jim Vincent]: Even the President [Robert] White. We weren’t too crazy about him.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Yeah, I always said they all went to their grave with lots of secrets with. My perception still is.

 

[Jim Vincent]: But I guess it depends on what eyes you’re looking through about what was going to happen or not happen when we came back and I think we came back with, we weren’t nervous about it. At least I don’t, I wasn’t. I don’t think.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: No, I don’t remember being nervous about it.

 

[Interviewer]: Well, the follow-up on an earlier question, [00:44:57] did you feel that the community, whether it was your hometown, or the Kent community, did you feel that there was a shift in how they perceived the Kent State students after the shootings?

 

[Jim Vincent]: Not for a while. There, for a long time, it was still the, the bad kids. Yeah, yeah, just because we were young and because we had longer hair and—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: I think it depended on to whom you spoke and what their opinions were and some were totally, Well, they deserved it. That was the most hurtful thing is when someone would say, Well—

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, They should’ve shot more of them.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Yeah, but like, yeah, They deserved it. How could you say that?

 

[Interviewer]: Something that we hear a lot that that was such a common response to the shootings.

 

[Jim Vincent]: It was.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: And I think I always said, “It could’ve happened to me.” I said, “It could’ve happened to me” and I’m very aware of that. And so, when you’re saying that, that’s very hurtful to me.

 

[Interviewer]: Right.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Because Sandy [Scheuer] was walking to class, I was in class, Bill [Schroeder] was observing, so yeah, those kind of, you know, extreme comments were very hurtful.

 

[Interviewer]: And again, it ties into the parallels with these shootings in schools today, so that’s, I mean, for someone to say that is, it’s disheartening.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: And obviously, there’s not a complete understanding of, well, what if it was my kid or—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: And that’s what you say to people, don’t you make those silly comments. But what if it happened to someone you’re related to? How would you have felt?

 

[Jim Vincent]: And people used to ask me, Well, you were there, so tell me about what was going on. You know, thousands of people were protesting. I don’t think it was that many. It might have, even of the thousand that I thought was there, I would say half of them, maybe—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: We had like twenty thousand?

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, there were twenty thousand at Kent.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Yeah, at Kent.

 

[Jim Vincent]: But protesting that day, you know there were maybe in my unjudged, or unprofessional eyes, I would say maybe a thousand total and there were two hundred protesting. That’s probably, yeah, a very small group, but they painted all twenty thousand of us under that same eye and I know how minorities feel in that sense. You know, they get painted too and it’s just not right. And that bothered me a lot because we weren’t any different than the kid down the street that they think is just great. It’s just that we happened to be there, that’s all.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:48:04] In the years following May 4, 1970, James Michener published a book titled, “Kent State: What Happened and Why.” Jim, it’s my understanding that you worked as one of Michener’s assistants. Can you describe how you got involved and what your responsibilities were?

 

[Jim Vincent]: No, you’re a little bit off. Carl Moore, Professor Carl Moore was my advisor, speech advisor because that was my major. And he contacted me at that time and he said, “I’m putting together an independent study opportunity for a select group and we have James Michener writing this book. It’s so full of misinformation, untruths, whatever.” So, he said, “We’re going to take a look at this because it ties in with speech.” You have to check your sources, you have to prepare a good presentation. You don’t make things up, you don’t lie like certain political people nowadays. You stick to the facts and you see how you get those facts. So, we wanted to take a look at this book because, years from now, people are going to look at that book and say, “That’s the actual way,” because James Michener was  a well-known author back at that time. He’d written Hawaii and some of these others. So, I said, “Okay, I’ll do that.” And he divided, Carl Moore, divided us up into groups and we could take down home look at how Michener put this together, who he interviewed, where he was at when he did it, what sources did he use, what facts and figures and we had to go contact people who had been interviewed by him and ask them these series of questions so that we could put it in kind of a rebuttal to what he was stating in this book. That’s how that was.

 

[Interviewer]: Throughout the decades, there have been several books written about the Kent State Shootings to include his. In 1972, the Daily Kent Stater reported that there were claims of inaccuracies from several critics. [00:50:21] What was your overall impression of his book?

 

[Jim Vincent]: It was full—it was riddled full of inaccuracies, yeah, you couldn’t, you couldn’t believe it. I mean, he had the basic outline of what happened that day, but that was about it.

 

[Interviewer]: What an incredible project to work on though, to be able to really dive into someone’s work and be able to call and kind of confirm or deny these credits and that’s—

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, and you couldn’t get through to some of the people.

 

[Interviewer]: I believe that, yeah. It’s not as easy as Googling or—

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, right. Yeah, so but it was very interesting, yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:51:02] Is there anything that either one of you would like to share about how these experiences have affected your life over the years?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: I always say that that defined my politics because my family was always very conservative and I said, “What went on at Kent State and that whole experience, I feel, defined the way I saw politics the rest of my life.” And I became very, considered myself liberal person and I think most of that is based on what happened at Kent, what I saw at Kent, how awful it was, how I saw the way our government could hide and it was very disheartening.

 

[Interviewer]: So, a defining moment in terms, especially of your political affiliation.

 

[Jim Vincent]: And her family, in particular, was very conservative with the one brother-in-law serving in the war in Vietnam, going through Coast Guard Academy, going to [The] Ohio State [University] and he became a successful veterinarian.

 

But it, yeah, I think it led to our openness to other views, points of views, and I think we’re much more liberal nowadays than we were destined to grow up to be because of what happened at that particular time. And I was particularly focused in on the media and their role in all of this because I don’t think they did justice to what happened as well. But they worked on what they had and they didn’t go searching. They had to come up with something fast, in their opinion, they had to keep people updated, they would tell you things that happened and after, retract that. So, the role of media in today’s society, up to that point, or up until present day probably has been very channeled through those few media outlets and they would, you saw things through their eyes. Nowadays, with technology and social media, it’s different. But we didn’t have that pleasure of having that back at that time.

 

[Interviewer]: Fifty-two years later, [00:54:29] can you talk about what brought you back to the most recent commemoration and have you been to prior commemorations since May 4 [1970]?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Yeah, through the years, we’ve been off and on to some. It kind of depends, at the time, if we’re free for that particular day and if our schedule works around, around those times.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Probably been to half dozen.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Maybe half a dozen over the years.

 

[Jim Vincent]: I would say, yeah. We work most the time. We couldn’t get off work—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Right, until we were retired. We’ve been retired for a while now, but yeah. No, this year, I just—

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, I don’t know. I went to the fiftieth one, that’s when I met Ted and his son and some other people up here. So, I went to the fiftieth one. We heard speakers, but it was a little bit different. We couldn’t get into things.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, the fiftieth one went virtual. And then the fifty-first, again, virtual which, I mean, is really interesting. That’s a piece of history itself, so a pandemic on top of these fifty years, so the fifty-second it was nice to get everyone back.

 

[Jim Vincent]: That was probably it, yeah. And, and I think, yeah, I think the fiftieth was a good attempt, very good, I mean, we watched it, remember? We sat there and watched that and then, then at that time, there was the video that came out on PBS. So, you know, that was all very moving and brought back a whole lot of memories for us and that type of thing. So, it was well done. I think we just missed being up here.

 

[Interviewer]: Absolutely. I imagine that there has been different feelings on Kent’s administration response from the immediate aftermath to today. [00:56:34] Can you kind of talk us through your feelings on how Kent responded to that, dating back from the day of the shootings to today?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: The thing that bothered me the most was when they wanted to build the gym and we felt like that was sacred ground. I remember being upset about that and that it was—it kind of fell on deaf ears because it was—I figured, Well, they don’t consider that important if they would do that and so, I wasn’t happy about that. I remember—I forget who was the president at the time, because we’d been through so many—but yes. I was not happy about that at all.

 

[Jim Vincent]: And that was just one, one instance though in a whole history of administrative goof ups and slap in the face kind of thing to the students and the events of that time and it wasn’t till just recently that I think the administration finally embraced what this meant in history.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: It was kind of sweeping it under the table.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, let’s ignore it, let’s push it away, we’re not going to—

 

[Dalene Forgan]: We’re not going to acknowledge it. Let’s not make a big deal out of this. Going to just—

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, so they slap you around a little bit then send you on your way and you’re going to be happy. Well, that wasn’t it. So, we didn’t like how it was being handled.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:58:16] Is there anything else that you want to talk about that we haven’t covered today?

 

[Jim Vincent]: One thing that kind of, that always seems to stand out in the back of my mind is that I don’t know if the students at Kent now or the students that come through have a much, if they have the history of what went on and if they have an appreciation of what went on. I don’t know if they’re apathetic like we all tend to get after a while or if, if the university isn’t providing that, or is it necessary even? Is this just an old person who’s there thinking that everyone needs to know what happened? I don’t know, but that always seems to bother me because we went to the fifty-second commemoration, I bet we could count on our two hands the number of students who were there.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: That appeared, yes.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, that appeared. And I see that number just like old people get. They’re going to die off and then, what’s going to happen in seventy years? How many people will be there, and will they even care about it? Now, the kids that we did, the kids, the students, young people that we did hear over at that day on the fifty-second, yeah, in the small room, they were very good. And it gave me some hope.

 

[Interviewer]: Good, I’m glad to hear that.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, really, it did. They were excellent representatives.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Especially the young man though, I thought, Okay he’s a relative of Glenn Frank, so of course.

 

[Jim Vincent]: That’s going to happen, yeah.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: He’s going to have heard about it and that’s going to be—

 

[Jim Vincent]: Hopefully he picks up that torch and keeps going with it.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Right, he seemed caring about it and involved which is nice. When I heard that I kind of thought, Oh, that’s why.

 

[Jim Vincent]: But as a student here, I would think that many of them, they maybe have heard about it. Like, they’ve heard about the war, or they’ve heard about- that’s about it. It’s a passing thing and they don’t really care. But to other people, I think it means a lot more.

 

[Interviewer]: Absolutely.

 

[Jim Vincent]: So, I don’t know what the answer is for that, but I would like to see the students know more about it, become a little more active. But they have so much, just like what was brought up that day. They have to work, they have to worry about taking care of themselves, you know, it’s tough, so.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: Starting out their lives.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Right, and to worry about what some old people went through, you know. That’s all.

 

[Interviewer]: Any other closing thoughts?

 

[Dalene Forgan]: I can’t think of anything I haven’t already brought up.

 

[Interviewer]: All right, well, I appreciate both of you taking the time to do this today. This is, again, a really important historical record and like we’ve said and mentioned throughout the interview is there are parallels and I think it’s even more important today than anytime, for these stories to be told, so again, I appreciate both of you for sharing.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Thank you. We, I must admit, this is one of the very few times that I’ve talked about it.

 

[Interviewer]: Well, good. I’m glad and I hope that it was a good experience for both of you.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, it was. We’re both educators and we probably had opportunities to talk to students about it, but we never have, so.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: No, not really.

 

[Jim Vincent]: Yeah, so this was enjoyable in that sense. Thank you.

 

[Interviewer]: Great, thank you.

 

[Dalene Forgan]: And I think I sometimes hesitated because I wouldn’t know what people’s reactions would be to even bring it up. So, maybe I just wouldn’t say anything if somebody had brought it up.

 

 

[End of interview]

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