Tony Malloy, Oral History

Recorded: May 4, 2023

Interviewed by: Liz Campion

Transcribed by the Kent State University Research & Evaluation Bureau

 

 

[Interviewer]: This is Liz Campion, May 4 Archivist, speaking on Thursday, May 4, 2023, at Kent State University Library’s Special Collections and Archives as part of the Kent State Shootings Oral History Project. [00:00:16] Could you please state your name for the recording?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Tony Malloy or Anthony Malloy. Tony is good.

 

[Interviewer]: I would like to begin with some brief information about your background so we can get to know you a little bit better. [00:00:29] Could you tell us where you were born and where you grew up?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Cleveland, Ohio. I grew up in West Park area of Cleveland. Around Puritas [neighborhood] and what—140^th  Street?

 

[Interviewer]: Not too far down from that.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Okay.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:00:50] When did you first come to Kent State University?

 

[Tony Malloy]: The fall of 1969.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:00:55] And what brought you to Kent State?

 

[Tony Malloy]: I didn’t have a stellar educational career, but I transferred from Cuyahoga Community College to Kent and that started the fall of 1969.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:01:17] What was your major when you transferred here as a student?

 

[Tony Malloy]: I came here. I declared journalism, advertising.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:01:28] Can you talk about how you viewed the protest and the Vietnam War when you first arrived on campus?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Okay, so this was when I first came here. You mean when I first came in—

 

[Interviewer]: Yup.

 

[Tony Malloy]: —during the whole weekend?

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Okay. Very, very strange. I went home that weekend, actually, so I could study for midterms, which I didn’t do at all. And I drove back later in the afternoon from Rocky River, where I was living—my parents’ home, to Kent and I pulled up towards the front of campus where the university bookstore used to be and the College of Business was there. And I came up over that ridge and I saw what looked like a tank. And it was like a tank except it didn’t have a gun on the front. And this is after the Sunday of the weekend where it all started down in the city and Friday night, and came onto the campus, and Saturday night and all that, and then Sunday during the day. So, I had been gone and I just thought—I was a smartass kid, but I thought this is really weird and it’s just—but I didn’t feel a sense of any fear or anything at that point. But I came to my—I lived in Glen Morris, student apartments, and I went to do some wash and they had a separate building going to. And as I was walking over there with my clothes in a basket, a helicopter flew over and there was a searchlight down there and I didn’t get tear gassed or anything, but it was—I started thinking, Hey, this just doesn’t seem right. They had problems here over the weekend and all that, but what is this? And so, it was—it was uncomfortable, but I was still like laughing about it, I guess. And then I settled in. I didn’t go up on campus, I just stayed in my place that night. That’s what I remember about the first night. I may have made some phone calls. I didn’t go out. Not for any particular reason that I was consciously aware of, but—

 

[Interviewer]: [00:03:52] Prior to coming to Kent State, did you have an understanding of what the atmosphere was like in terms of the politics, or activism, or anything—

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: —like that?

 

[Tony Malloy]: I’m glad you brought that up because these are things that—I wasn’t an activist. I’m not proud of that. I’m not ashamed of it. But I just wasn’t in that mindset. I hated Nixon. But the silent majority made me vomit. I hear that, but it wasn’t because I was—I didn’t want to get drafted. I should say I had been classified 1-A. When I got here in ’69, I participated in the lottery. Because I was—already had my pre-induction physical and they were going to take me after the one—it was quarter semesters we were on here. And so, I was very aware of that, but I was still not sure what my number was going to be. So, I was aware, but not overly worried. I was very naïve. I think about of all this. Very naïve. So, I was certainly aware of that and my woman—turned out to be my wife in later years—was a semester behind me so she would say they’d me—they were meeting out on campus. And this was in spring of ‘69, I guess. I came to see her for a weekend and we were—it wasn’t like a big, active, loud demonstration, but it was clear there was something that was controversial. To some level informational and I was aware of it but I didn’t see myself being involved in activities and, and all that. Certainly, never thought about anything about the law because I had never been arrested or anything. I don’t know if that answered the question?

 

[Interviewer]: Absolutely. So, coming from the Cleveland area too, there was obviously a lot going on in terms of activism. [00:05:52] Do you—were there any significant memories from that time in the Cleveland area that you recall? Whether those were protests, acts of activism.

 

[Tony Malloy]: I don’t know—I’ll say that what—ran together at that time plus or minus months of whatever, but, was the, it was during the Black History—what do we call it? That era. And so, I—

 

[Interviewer]: The Civil Rights Era.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Civil Rights, excuse me. How could I forget that? But the Civil Rights. And I went to high school in the east side of Cleveland where the narrative was, I, I wasn’t feeling familiar, but the high school across the street from us was all Black students and then there’s this white Catholic, although we had some Black students at the school I went to as well. So, I guess when you ask about awareness, I was aware there’s something happening and Martin Luther King when he would talk, I mean, I didn’t—I wasn’t getting into any involvement, but it was like this is something, this is something going on here and I was interested in kind of being aware and on the fringes. So, and that, and that’s exactly, not exactly, but it’s very similar to how I felt about, about the war. I mean knew it was going on and when I really think about it, I said, “Why in the hell are we doing that?” Some would say, “Well, it’s a domino effect of the—the commies are coming.” And all that stuff. And I didn’t really buy it completely, but I didn’t have any strong feelings on—I didn’t want to get involved. And I thought that when I was 1-A classified, I thought, Well, I’m not going to, I’m not going to go to Canada or something. Never would do that, but I, somehow—I get through it. Get through it here or, or the military. So, I was aware.

 

I say this too much, so I’m probably going to be a smartass. I am being a smartass. It’s just, I was not a good student. I was a horrible student. I was on academic probation. I got into Kent because I had to get a certain average for that quarter to give me like two points to be able to transfer on good terms and that’s the big part of my history is school and what I didn’t know—what I didn’t know and all. But I was aware what was going on. I just wanted to go, I, I just wanted to go to college, drink beer, and get laid and we—the essentials. And then it was then I met my, who would be my wife later, but we—that was around that time too. As we were going through that whole area of being in love and all that stuff.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:08:46] So, essentially you wanted the college experience?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yes, that and, and—

 

[Interviewer]: To enjoy your time here.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Specifically, in this way as I, as I explained. There was, there wasn’t a, like, a plan B. Plan B was get drafted, I guess.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:09:00] How would you describe the prevailing attitudes or the mood among students in the spring of 1970?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh, in 1970 spring. It was confusing. It was unclear. Very opinionated and I’m not judging, it was just very swings about. That would’ve been when I was in Cuyahoga Community College couple years before. It was like can I get away with drinking other than low-grade beer? I mean I, I didn’t get much into marijuana, but—because I never knew if I was going to be ordering pizzas or having a panic attack. So, when it came to these—that was like not an issue still. That was just—some of it was a lot of fun. So, I didn’t have any—there was an uneasy, there was a curiosity/uneasiness that I had about the demonstrations. I mean, and I hate to say this—I can be judgmental about a lot of things, like a lot of people can. Not everybody, but. And I regret it because I—but I was naïve and my priorities was—they were bad. And I didn’t want to interfere with that, but I could tell that there were—people were angry and frustrated and part of me thought, I’m missing out on this, I’m missing something here. I should understand. And I wasn’t the completely ignorant of it. I’d get into discussions about that and back then everybody would argue, Now let me tell—it’s, it’s, “Let’s rap.” Oh okay. But I was really naïve and that’s all the way until we get to the shootings.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay. [00:10:48] One of the questions that I was going to ask, but I think you eluded to it a little bit was, how politically involved or active would you describe yourself at the time? And it didn’t sound like there was much, but did happen to participate in any protest or political organizations?

 

[Tony Malloy]: No political organizations. No protests. I mean, I was really just—I wasn’t attentive to it. Or I wasn’t interested in it. I had my opinions, but it would change. I say, “Well, you got to go.” And I thought, That, that doesn’t sound right. If you get drafted and I said, “Well, I guess.” And then it would always be—I was—then I started wishing I would hurt back or my knee when I was playing football so I really— And I had had my pre-induction physical and that was, like, Oh my god, that was kind of a reality check. And I said, at the time with the federal building in Cleveland when I had the check, “Well, I’m going to Kent next fall.” He goes, “Well, you can go there, but after that’s over, that semester, you’re ours.” And I said, “Well, I’m not feeling good about this.” So, I—I wasn’t engaged in any, anything that was a real questionable or conceived—considered questionable. I had opinions and—but I would go from one to the other. I’m thinking about people dying and dying and, and all this stuff.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:12:23] One of the questions I wanted to ask was, was your family aware of the protests that were taking place on campus and if so did any of them communicate their feelings about the protests or the war in general?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Okay, so you’re talking about not just the, not just the weekend before the—

 

[Interviewer]: Just overall.

 

[Tony Malloy]: My dad was a Nixon Republican and—but he wasn’t, and I found this out and in fact the crescendo of it all came after the shootings. He didn’t want us going on—have anything to do with going in the service. His father had died, my grandfather had died during the second World War and he got a—he was discharged, honorably discharged because he was the sole supporting son. I was always comfortable, or curious at least, with Black people and all that because I was interested. Well, my father wasn’t, but he, what surprised me at times, because he would say things that were. And he’d say, “Maybe it will be better if—with your generation when you grow up.” But he was still like in, in between with this and— So, your question, though, was about what was the—

 

[Interviewer]: [00:13:42] If they had communicated their particular feelings about the protests on campus or the war in general?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Not on campus. No, not really. I mean if I would’ve asked him, he would’ve given me his opinion. But it wouldn’t have gone deep.

 

[Interviewer]: Right.

 

[Tony Malloy]: That’s what I found out. I was, I thought, Gee, my dad. So, that made me even more aware of: be open and listen and I was a listener. I’m a people person. And that—I kind of pushed it away after a while. This would happen—my conversation with somebody and then just move on. But I was torn. There was this conflict in my mind that it’s not right, I want to get mine, they get theirs. I mean, that type of swing back and forth. I’m going to have a career and get married someday. All that stuff. And so, I didn’t dwell on it, but it was there, it had an edge, I guess.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay. [00:14:48] Do you remember the environment in your classes in the weeks leading up to May 4?

 

[Tony Malloy]: I had a history class and the teacher was—really had a dry sense of humor. He was cutting and he was—I loved him. I was—that’s why I started listening. Got indoctrinated? No, no, no, no! I’m starting to listen and learn. So, I forget his name, but he would talk about the war and I remember he said, one thing he said that—yes, and then we were talking about American history, so we were talking about Quakers. Nixon was a Quaker. He says, “Of course Quakers are, they’re peace-loving people and they’re very compassionate.” And he says, “In fact, our president is a Quaker.” And the whole room—classroom was—and there was a woman that was in that class and would stand up when there was a rally like in the gym.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Tony Malloy]: And they’d be saying this, this, and this. I guess that’s an active shooting. Dick Gregory came after that, for sure. And the, and the, and that she stood up. She would stand up and say, “Can’t you say just one good thing about this great country?” And all that and everybody would go, “Wooo!” And she did, she said in this class before the shootings. And before that all happened this teacher said that about the Quakers and she stood up in the classroom. She goes, “Can’t you say,” and he’d say, “You’re such a cynic,” she said, and he’d said something like, “Oh, you’re really the cynic here,” he said. And I liked him. But I was changing, I was more interested. I always had a curiosity about things in life and when it came to this, it was big because it turned out being huge. To this day it is.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:16:54] I’m curious about, prior to the shooting,s did you have a sense of how local Kent community members perceived the Kent State—

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yes.

 

[Interviewer]: —students?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yes. Not good. And it was—the townies, we called them. I stayed away from them. It’s a milder version of what we have today as far as random acts of violence and stuff. It wasn’t like that, but it was—I didn’t feel I belonged.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay. I think this is the part that you and I had a little discussion about, but I’m hoping you can expound upon. [00:17:35] Can you tell me about your experiences during the period of April 30^th to May 4^th, 1970?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Sure, of course. I went home that night on Friday. I mean, I was a horrible student, I just didn’t study. I later found out I have some diagnoses for things and if we get into that later, that’s fine if we don’t. But I had some learning things that I should’ve got some help with. And back then, they didn’t do much of that and I went to a Catholic school system and they had less of those services. I don’t know if they were against them as much as they weren’t funded for. They weren’t even in the ionosphere of the world. But, I’m sorry, the question you asked. And so, before that weekend on Friday, I went home. As I walked across campus leaving, I think it was Jerry Rubin was heading up a rally or something. And I must’ve got—I, I got there late, but I’m not sure how many showed up, but it was o. front campus and he had—was back talking and I’m thinking, Who is this guy? And he looked familiar, like I saw him or pictures someplace. And then, later, I found out it was him. So, I was on my way across front campus in the way and then going home for the weekend. So, when I woke up on Saturday morning and found out about the—what happened downtown and the night before and I was like, Hm, wow. And my dad said something like, “Hey, they had this thing at Kent last night.” I said, “Oh.” And I wasn’t sure what was going on and I figured well, they got drunked up, and went crazy, and trashed the town. I thought it—it still didn’t seem right because it was more than like a threw up on the sidewalk or something like that. So, since my father had kind of a reaction—I’m his son, so I’ll kind of like, I’m going to listen a little more. But I did think what—whatever it was, it’ll be over and that’s been all done. So, I know I didn’t focus on the reporting of what happened. I just kind of said, “Well, I’m going back tomorrow night or whatever.” So, that’s not good. I knew that destroying property wasn’t good. I didn’t tie closely to the war at that point. I mean, I knew there were factors. There were—the country was changing and all that in my heart of hearts. I wouldn’t say this or dwell on it, but I knew it was changing and I’d like the rebellious part. Because I was at that rebellious age. Keeping my goals in order. And that’s, that was a, that was about it. So I was aware, I was curious and I wouldn’t seek more information, but I was—it wasn’t just something that was a fainting thought. That was on Friday.

 

Saturday, of course, what I just talked about. We talked about. And it was more curiosity, what are you going to do, my mom probably said something about, “You be careful down there.” Something like that. But among my friends and my siblings, we probably just acknowledged it and chit-chatted about something and then went on with whatever else we were going to do. I was a naïve. I was just naïve. Didn’t anticipate anything else happening. Somebody said, the w—“Well, Hell’s Angels had come down through on Friday night.” So, I thought, Yeah, I could see that. I could see what. And, and.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:21:38] So, you arrived back onto campus Saturday?

 

[Tony Malloy]: No, Sunday afternoon, around four o’clock. Later in the afternoon. That’s when I saw that armored tank vehicle. 

 

[Interviewer]: Okay. [00:21:52] Can you describe kind of the environment when you showed back up that day?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Absolutely. It was—things had changed and I was concerned because I see an armored vehicle. I’m—and then the atmosphere was—I may—took some notes on it. I left them at home, but I wrote different words that summed it up and it was uncertainty, confusion, disruption, lack of information, ignorance, misinterep—not like we say today, but just the rumors. It just you have no facts or there’s not a whole lot and, back then, things weren’t televised all the time or they didn’t have meetings and have—

 

[Interviewer]: People weren’t texting each other the latest.

 

[Tony Malloy]: No! No. It was nothing. In fact, this thing—one thing that was strange, it was about a week before this all started. It was first Earth Day ever. I remember going to the health center and it was first Earth Day. I thought, Oh, that’s interesting. But it was, it was concerning. I mean right away it was like this isn’t right and I’m not the smartest pencil in the drawer, but I’m not the dullest either and street sense of things and I thought—I’m always, always just aware. I grew up in a city, so just kind of aware of what’s happening and I was every bit of that right from the time I drove off and it, it—and it was. Other people were still out. I didn’t go out that night on Sunday, but I realized I was into something that was beyond just a neighborhood scuffle.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:23:47] Do you recall hearing about the ROTC fire and, if so, did you have any reactions to that?

 

[Tony Malloy]: I heard about and it shocked me. This is what I mean. This was when it started going from, “Um, huh?” And I knew that wasn’t good. I didn’t have any sympathy for the ROTC building, but I figured, when I walked by, it was just some big garage, but I didn’t go onto campus to look at it. That part of me had to do with my antenna going up for caution. But I did think this is not just a minor instance. This is going to have ramifications and I’m concerned. And there wasn’t, going back to the question you asked and the words I said, it was, I didn’t consider it unsafe at the time, but it was getting real close. So, it was uncertain, confused, disorganized, and then it grew from there, which I’ll give it some other words in a little bit here, I’m sure, but it was like, this isn’t my father telling me anything. This is like something out of my hands. I remember, too, this was when I lived in Glen Morris [apartments]. We stayed at one place and then the guy was my roommate. He was very convincing, so he didn’t like these other two guys that were in that place and they were, [you] know, dip-smoking hoopers. And I didn’t like them either, to tell you the truth. He had like a nasty look on his face. This was when I first came here.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Tony Malloy]: And I just had a real distrust, a caution with him. He kind of like—I didn’t even know him. I was just sitting in my apartment and he’d play a lot of music and smoked. We had two bedrooms and my roommate and I were in this one and they were in that one. He was like—what’s going on. We didn’t have any conversation, but he appeared as an activist.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Tony Malloy]: And I didn’t hate activists. I didn’t know any, but I guess I knew him a little bit. So, it was—it’s all the thing I was building up. Caution, concern, interest, curiosity also. Those can mean the same the thing only in milder or more interesting moments. Dating feels like that. I mean really, at that point in life, and I definitely had a red flag up, but it was like here [lower], it wasn’t up there yet. And it didn’t—something wasn’t right. And it wasn’t just the—an instance that in fact had that. It was kind of an atmosphere.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:26:53] So, you had a good sense Sunday, that this isn’t normal?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: That they’re—

 

[Tony Malloy]: And I think, I’m not sure if this is how what had happened or not? But they had a hotline. You call into the university. “The classes will continue as normal tomorrow.” It’s like it sure doesn’t seem like that right now. And this was on Sunday night and I thought this was when I was going to die if I didn’t get to my classes and, in fact, I had missed my midterm. Yeah! Where’s, where’s a match? I was laissez-faire student. But it wasn’t feeling good. My gut told me, Be careful.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:27:42] So, can you walk us through the morning of May 4 and kind of how the day transpired for you?

 

[Tony Malloy]: I went to my class, the first class, and it was, it was another—he was a great teacher, too. I think he was geology? I think it was? Wasn’t that Frank? [editor’s clarification: Glenn Frank, Professor of Geology]. It was, I forget his name. I really respected him and he of all things, he was upset. He says, “I can’t stand up here and conduct a class when we have armed vehicles and people holding—soldiers holding rifles right outside this door all the way.” I was going to Taylor Hall next. And, it’s like, I mean it’s like he said what I had been dancing around. Cautionary, curious, uninvolved, “It’ll be okay just, just rely on your street smarts.” So, it went from that to, This is fucked up. And he said, “I cannot teach a class when we have these soldiers on campus.” And he didn’t seem like a way out there kind of guy, or whacko, or whatever they would refer to people like that. And that was really kind of opening up like, beepers are going off. Caution, caution. And so, he actually talked about that day. Probably because Earth Day had been a week before. He said, “If we don’t do something with the pollution in this country, in twenty years we’ll be back into the Ice Age. Moving towards the Ice Age.” Or, and he says, “It could go the other way.” And there’s not a day that goes by that I don’t think of that. Because it’s where we are now. So, that left an impression on me and I had a lot of respect for this guy because it did—if you work as a history teacher, you miss one. But—

 

[Interviewer]: [00:29:49] So, you had good experiences with your professors, it sounds like?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh, I did. I did. Took a literature class after that. I took a women’s rights class. Because I thought I could get some leads. That was later, but I just thought that. There were like ten of them and me. It didn’t go the way I had thought it might. I mean I didn’t have any objectives. Thought this might be a good thing and I get credit for it. So, I was on academic probation and, well, when I came in, I wasn’t. So, I was still an official student in good standing.

 

I remember well that class and afterwards, and he made a good message and it was professional. It was authentic. It was honest. It was sincere. And I had respect with this man that I didn’t know very well at all, but it left an impression. And I was glad I was there for that. So, I left there and I went back to my apartment and my girlfriend lived in the front of Glen Morris [apartments] and I was down the street a ways. And so, I stopped at her place and her roommates were there, about eleven-thirty in the morning on Monday.

 

And I would remember this song, a pop song from this guy. He was like a country singer, but I wasn’t into that. But it was a top forty kind of song. It was called, “Everything is Beautiful,” was the name of the song. Ray Stevens was the guy’s name that sang it. And it says, and before that it was an Akron AM station. And they’re saying, “At Kent State right now, they’re gathering for a—call for a meeting in the front campus.” I said, “Oh, there is?” I kept calling the 1-800 number and it kept saying, “All classes will continue as scheduled at Kent.” So, I said, “Okay.” But my first class was a sign that this was not going to be your normal Monday morning. So, I stopped there and, and I hear that on the radio and then he goes—start at Kent and then that song starts off. And I didn’t love the song, but it’s “Everything is beautiful in its own way upon the heaven moonlight,” and it’s like a humanitarian kind of message. And I’ll never forget that because I went from there I went to Taylor Hall. Then things. And the bell—they were ringing the bell. No, it wasn’t that. It didn’t get to that point yet. Or was it? I forget when they— When I got towards Taylor Hall,  I walked around the campus with my roommate Ray and he was one of these guys—he could get into anything—he wanted to get information. He was—had to watch out for him. He was. But he says, “Come on. We’re going to go. Let’s walk over, let’s walk over by the play—the practice football field.”

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Tony Malloy]: So, we walked around and just— I remember I was there when they got down on one knee and I thought, This is fucked up. Really fucked up. And the tear gas was a joke because they’re shooting tear gas off and it’s blowing right back in the Guards’ face because there’s just a twenty-mile-an-hour wind that day. I said that these FBI guys later, that’s a separate part of this, but I said, “They’re really scaring the shit out of them, aren’t they?” And then students pick it up and throw it back at them. So, it was a comedy of errors. I’m talking about me thinks at that point.

 

It wasn’t a comedy of errors but, at that point, I thought, They don’t know. They can’t find their ass with both hands. And I thought, Who’s in charge here? I did think that. Who’s in charge? I’m not a military guy, but— And, of course, at that point, I was away from the service of it, but in the jeeps going up and down from the old Student Union to around Taylor Hall and bullhorns, “Students disperse.” I said, What a fucking joke. I mean, really, what are you talking about? I mean, thousands of people around here are—”

 

[Interviewer]: [00:34:49] Right. Did any of the students disperse when they heard that or did they kind of continue on as is?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh, it continued. I did. But I wasn’t part of—I was in that for a while, too, and I just thought well, I’m going to be careful here, but. Disperse, I’m thinking, Hey how’s the dispersing going on over there, huh? Give me your bullhorn for a minute and shove it up your ass. But it was, it was amazing. It was—I could be as sarcastic as anybody and I have plethora of information on that. It was just horrible. I mean it turned out to be horrible of course. But it was a joke. And I thought, Well, what are we supposed to do? Classes are continuing, right? President-what’s-his-name said so. I don’t really want to go over there to this class, but I figured we’re hanging around, so we walked over towards—after a while. And they were all like eight deep. The lines on both sides of the midway, I call it. From the old Student Center to around Taylor Hall and that area. Real mixed signals, people laughing, people yelling, other people running. I didn’t see anybody get hit at that point, but it was increasingly like, where do I go? Because I’m not going to go back to my apartment because I got to hang around. This might be interesting and that kind of thing. Mixed messages, try to make sense of it and not that—I would figure out the sense was it’s people out control and people—nobody knows. Everybody running around with two left shoes. And—left foot shoes and, and. But I was curious. What’s going to happen? Because I didn’t have any—who would’ve known. In fact, I had been thinking, Loaded weapons on a college? No way. And even when they get down there and they’re doing that I thought, Oh they’re blanks, I know this stuff. They would’ve run out there bare-chested or something like that. I mean, it was that nobody was in charge.

 

It’s like, I went to Catholic school, education was, I was all trained for that. For this like, hey—hey—hey. Try it again. It was a, it was a joke. And, as a young kid, I wasn’t happy about it, but it was like, I was curious as well. And I knew that they’d say the same things again. They being the Guard or whoever it was to speak. It’s just like president-what’s-his-name’s message. It was the same every time. “Classes will continue.” I’m thinking, Fuck is this. And this Monday afternoon now and, and so I, well, with little respect I had for the process, went and vanished and part of me was getting pissed off because I’m thinking, You can’t find your ass with both hands. Don’t give a hard time. And so, I was, I was defiant in that way, but I wasn’t stupid enough to [say], “Hey, asshole. Ugh. I’m at the butt of your rifle.” And I’d run and tell the people. Then they’d be the same thing. “What are you doing?” “I don’t know something happened over there.” It was gossipy kind of half I-give-a-shit attitude. But wondering where’s this going or what’s—where are we heading toward? So, we walked around campus, down in that area by Taylor Hall and back towards the practice football field was it then? Whatever it was or is. And so, Ray, my roommate says, “Come on let’s go over to the Music and Speech [Building].” I don’t know why. A little higher elevation or some. He was a tactician when I came and stuff like that. So, we walked over to Music and Speech briefly and saw there wasn’t anything happening there so we came back and we came across through the parking lot and across the front part of Taylor Hall on like an angle and, all of sudden, my eyes just—and I just, I was—I just got a whiff, I didn’t see it, I just got a whiff of tear gas. I had never had that happen in my life, so I knew it was tear gas. I was like [gasps] and we’re walking and he says, my roommate says, “Let’s go inside the building.” He had enough sense for that.

 

[Interviewer]: Get out of it. Get out of the tear gas.

 

[Tony Malloy]: So, what we did, we walked across. I’ll never forget that, though. I was like, just my pores just went, splat! And I thought, Just where did this come from? Because the tear gas was like up over the ridge on the other side and here’s Taylor Hall and we were like walking towards it. So, I realized how strong and powerful that was. And some people say that was like military-issue quality of tear gas. This wasn’t your, your mother’s favorite tear gas for the neighborhood riot or something. So, we went into Taylor Hall and then, I don’t know the order of all of this, but eventually we went. We were both curious though. “Hey let’s go upstairs. Architecture’s up on the fourth floor.” So, we went up there. And we had, it’s like being in a skybox of your favorite baseball stadium or whatever. We’re just standing there looking and, and you can see in the distance you can see the march. It was like a joke. The march of the soldiers. Tin, tin soldiers or something going on here. And then some are kneeling down looking like that and there’s tear gas going around.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:41:05] You guys had a very—it sounds like a very clear vantage point.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Totally. It was very—I went back there yesterday. The guys told me that twenty years ago I think I was up there. And just to see it. I’ll probably go there again today, but got up there and I remember it was the Architecture Department. It was the Architecture Department. And a friend of mine was an architecture major. I didn’t see him up there. [Joseph] Morbito was the professor’s name. I just had somebody refresh my memory with that. Is he still here?

 

[Interviewer]: No, I don’t believe so.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh. Well, I remember that was his class. That’s all. I never knew him, but— So, we walked around and I’m—we’re trying to make sense of what’s going on and entertain all the hell. I mean, at that point, now seems—it wasn’t funny. I knew something had happened. I knew this building had been burned down. The garage they called it. Big garage. And that wasn’t good and I had listened to that asshole governor. Even I wasn’t afraid of, like I said earlier. When he made that announcement on, what was it, Sunday morning or. I was shaken by that because he’s saying we’re going to go to any—take whatever it takes. And I’m thinking, fuck you, but I was thinking What’s going on? So, that’s why a lot, even before we got back on campus, I had a little trepidation and that grew because it went from being, like, a bunch of ass clowns about it to this is, this is messed up. And I’d see some guy from my fraternity. He was in one of the dorms. He tells me the story of the helicopter flying over like the night before they were dropping tear gas. Just people on campus. And so, what happens it was one of the halls over—I can’t remember what hall, but what happened? You hear a helicopter. It sounds like helicopter outside your dorm window, you’re going to check it out. You’re going to—and you here this thud, boom, boom, boom, boom. So, you open up the window. What happens? (Whoosh sound) All the tear gas gets sucked in. And so, my friend who it happened he says, “God damn those bastards.” He’s, he just, he got up and he ran out of the—went down the down the stairs. Whatever. He had to get out of his dorm. He ran outside and some guy with the twelve went and hit him because he went out there. He was supposed to be inside because there was a—that was, aw. The, the, the—you, you’ve heard this, all this stuff that the, ugh, it was so messed up that it—you don’t know what to do. And I wasn’t caught up in that, thank god, but he just, my friend, he—they clubbed him because he ran out of the building because tear gas came into his bedroom.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, his choice was to—

 

[Tony Malloy]: And you’re not supposed to, you’re not supposed—

 

[Interviewer]: —have tear gas or break curfew.

 

[Tony Malloy] And they said, “You’re not supposed to be out here.” “Who said that I can’t be out here?” They said, “There’s s a curfew.” “What curfew?” And then of course people—curfew. I mean, it was, it was, it was destined for failure. I thought it was kind of going to burn itself out, no funny—no pun intended or it all just end. But it just—and being above just, like me, snotty-nose Catholic kid growing up would relish in this atmosphere because it’s, it’s, it’s, it was a comedy of errors at, at that point. Now, it wasn’t really for people who got hit—hurt. But I thought, Why I got—I’m not going to, I forget I left shortly thereafter and. Or no, no he told me the story had happened to him and I went, I went back to Taylor Hall. But it was not good and I could tell something—but it was I, I was still interested and excited, but I had that street smarts attitude which was really stupid. But I—nothing happened. Nobody knew what was going on. What’s going on? Hell, I don’t know. And then you get different stories too. You walk around—I was walking around, that was after the shootings, but it was really, truly amazing what more people weren’t killed. It’s amazing. And severely wounded and, and more burnings or something. And because it was really. But I was like titillated. Part of me was like, Oh wow!

 

[Interviewer]: [00:45:43] When you and Ray were overlooking kind of what was happening, were there other people that had found that kind of same skybox atmosphere or, or were you guys kind of separated from everyone else?

 

[Tony Malloy]: I did.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yeah, I think we did.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Tony Malloy]: That—and that’s—the thing is I remember there were other people up there when I got the fourth floor. And I remember being—I could go right up and have my nose touch the glass and you, and you look down and there’s, there’s the sculpture and. So, what did, what was the—what did you just ask me?

 

[Interviewer]: [00:46:25] Do you recall that the moment that gunfire began from where you were standing?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh, yeah! Yes, I should, I should speed this up a little bit because it was like a, I don’t know how long we were there, but it, it seems like longer than it may have been, but it was more than five minutes. I mean, we were up there, I don’t know? I don’t know? Twenty minutes. Something like that and we were in that area and there were people—there were some people, I think architecture students. There were a few. Not a lot. Kind of sitting over there and here’s the window and outside in The Commons and we were standing like right about here and when I talked to, was it Paul? Whoever it was yesterday. He’s like the—not my words, historian as far as everything that happened.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Tony Malloy]: And he said, “Yeah there was,” He said, “We have nobody that was there in the Architecture Department, ever talk to anybody from there.” So, I’m thinking. I’m trying to remember stuff and I was there and we were just watching. It was like a movie theater, not a movie, but it’s quiet now there. Really, I mean, you could hear, but— And you’re just kind of observing this screwed up stuff that’s going on and still curious and you’re like, “I wonder what they’re doing on the practice football field?” I mean, I’d be thinking I mean those kind of thoughts. And you see tear gas flying around. People throwing like branch, branches or rocks and people would say that, “They were stoned, they were throwing rocks at them.” But it wasn’t like—this guy wasn’t like a, a baseball pitcher or something. It was, it had a—I was starting to think. Well, no, I wasn’t starting to think this then, but, but I—it was a mess and they were running around and I was by the window and somebody said something. I’m not sure. Paul, kind of, when he said this, it made me think, Well was there, or wasn’t? I couldn’t remember how many other people were there except for—there were more than two or three or four, but I don’t remember that we were like four deep from the window back here. It was. And it came and went. We still—people would walk around and come back or leave, come in. But not many and what happened was the—and I’ve of course seen the documentaries of all of this and when they were there and like the Guard was like we’re supposed to go, it’s like, I mean, it’s an example. I’m laughing at that and it’s like oh, shit, I wasn’t in the service saying lead the troops into, into the lion’s mouth or something or what. I mean it was so fucked up. It, it was, it was a comedy of errors would be the way to describe. It was. So, somehow, they got—oh I know, that’s when I heard this at is that they were down towards the practice football field. There was a chain link fence, right?

 

[Interviewer]: Yes.

 

[Tony Malloy]: I remember that. And then they announce, “Kent State students, you’re surrounded.” And they were up against the chain link fence and they all said “Ah!” It was just a joke, which wasn’t a joke, which wasn’t a joke at all. I would soon find out. So, they turned around and they started heading back towards Taylor Hall and I guess it was to get away from being surrounded. And some people, I think, were right on the fences and some of the fences were down, some of them, chain link fence. I remember some of that. The tear gas I think let up by then. It seemed to have let up. But there was a crowd that was following. Like human escort. It was still, was still a joke at this moment, but they’re following along and, “Fuck you,” whatever, “You killed in the war.” And things like that. And I didn’t hear that, but you just see it was that atmosphere plus the, the documentaries I’ve seen and talking to people. I just put—throwing that in here too. But it was still the comedy of errors, but it was me—really messed up, screwed up comedy of errors and I was wondering, I kept thinking, Where’s this going to go? So, I thought when they came back, Let them go. And it wasn’t like these were Olympians throwing sticks and stuff at them, or rocks. It wasn’t like granite boulders. I mean, if it would’ve hit somebody, it would’ve hurt them, but it just a lot of yelling. “Get out, get out of here, get off our campus.”

 

So, I, at that point, I was saying, “Gee, get the hell out of here. This isn’t.” I thought about Governor Rowlands [editor’s clarification, Governor Rhodes] and I’m just getting really pissed because this is really messed up. There’s risk here. A lot of risk. And so, they said, “The crowd massed.” I, I just, I remember there was what twenty people maybe at the most and one was a big, tall, thin guy and he was like throwing. This guy was not a pitcher, I mean. And—but they’re yelling and throwing and I’m sure people got hit with rocks or sticks, but it wasn’t like this was an assault from World War I coming out of the trenches or something. I mean it was—I wasn’t there either—but it’s, where is this going? So, we’re up in the floor looking. I’m watching all this and they came up over this ridge and they got to the top. Same distance where they turned and fired. I came up there and I’m thinking, Oh, we should just go and see where they—they’re going to go down the other side. Then I found out later through the years that they would have been more at risk going down and that the Guard was going to shoot them. They did anyhow. But, they were just so close to being over that ridge to go down and I mean I know there was risk there, but—and then they just stopped. And my, my, my memory says that they. And they kind of turned around. They didn’t turn around like this. They just kind of all turned around like what are you guys doing? What are we doing? I mean even for them it’s like what the hell. Now what. And I was thinking, Go down the other side of the fucking hill! That’s what I was thinking. Just turn around and I heard, I, I—it’s almost like I heard a single shot, boom, and then (imitates gun sound). Thirteen seconds. It was—it started and I, and I thought, What! And then I—my, my survival thing kicked in and thought, Oh they’re blanks—oh, they’re shooting their blanks—oh, they’re just trying to scare us. I mean, it, it, I thought. But I remember seeing—and yesterday when I talked a little bit with John, I re—I, because I’m still right there watching and I thought when—let me think. I just got a brain fart. Just give me a minute. I got—I’m sorry. I need—hang on—just. It’ll take a minute here, but. So, I saw the shooting. I just watched the whole thing like it was a movie. And, okay, and then the—I saw grass flying down there and I never thought about this until yesterday, but Tom or Paul, whatever his name is, I. It wasn’t like they were all shooting the same spot. I never knew that until yesterday. It makes sense. Just some blowing here, some blowing there. I’m standing there, I mean it could’ve gone, could’ve.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:55:03] So, you were watching this, I mean, the moment it happened too?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:55:09] Do you remember how you and Ray reacted in that exact moment or was it just pure shock at that point?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Well, it was both. It was like a suspended animation almost. Not really, but it was. I don’t know what I felt. I still thought they weren’t live ammunition. I don’t know where I got that? Probably from watching, watching Roy Rogers on Sunday morning or something like that. I thought that’s how it goes. And—

 

[Interviewer]: [00:55:46] At that moment did you decide to stay in the building or—

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh, yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: —what was kind of your reaction with where to go next?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh, no. I stayed there until the shooting stopped. And then almost—within a couple minutes Ray was curious, like me, and more so. So, we’re going to go out and take a look. Fifty some years that I’ve been waiting to tell somebody that would, that would listen. I mean I’m not. So, he says, “Let’s go outside and check it out.” Or something like that. Mainly, again, I put it all in context here. I still thought they were blanks and, and I heard maybe a couple—some screaming, but it wasn’t like—it was kind of not quiet, but I don’t know. And—

 

[Interviewer]: Surreal. I mean—

 

[Tony Malloy]: Surreal is—

 

[Interviewer]: That’s how you’re describing it. It sounds surreal at this moment.

 

[Tony Malloy]: It was, it was almost like slow motion. So, we went downstairs, we went out the doors and walked over there. And yesterday I we—when I went there, I walked up from where Jeff Miller was killed to the sculpture. We saw the hole in it and all that. And I looked and I thought, Boy that doesn’t look like—I thought he was further up so, when I’d seen the pictures of him, we, we’d walk right up to him and I think—what I always thought is, is before what’s her na—the woman’s name was from Florida. Brenda was it something? The one with the students going like this.

 

[Interviewer]: Mary Ann Vecchio.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Mary Ann Vecchio. Yes. I, I don’t think she’s gotten there yet. Or if she did, she was there and gone. I think I got to him before anybody else did. I think. Because I just remember he was, he was just lying there and blood’s coming out. I thought it was his neck and somebody said they shot him in the face. But it was like, This is real.

 

[Interviewer]: It’s real and it’s on your campus. I mean—

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yeah. And what are you doing on my camp—all the laughing we had been doing. It was a comedy of errors, but this ain’t a comedy of errors. And it’s really happening and the reality of—really, really it was the reality of this stuff happened and, and we didn’t—nobody anticipated it. But this is bad. This is horrible. This guy is dead. And then we stayed there for—we weren’t there that long and then we walk—worked our way—we walked. It was, it was really fucked up.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:58:56] How soon thereafter do you recall, if you do, ambulances or any sort of emergency kind of vehicle showing up?

 

[Tony Malloy]: One—all I, always remember was the ambulance from Ravenna Hospital or whatever. God, I hate that town. Just because of all of this and all the Royal Crown signs they had. Royal Crown and drinks in every corner they had that. It didn’t seem like long before the ambulance pulled up. Is there one or two of them? One of them, of course first the one. And I viewed that from a distance. I wasn’t over—I never went down the other side of the hill where they had marched up. But I do remember shortly after that, before—well, it was around the time that the ambulance showed up. Talk about the irony of it all. Some student opened up his window in his room and he had the Beatles album, Revolution, “Don’t go revolution.” And I looked up and I just thought, No longer was this a joke. It's like, Boy this is.

 

[Interviewer]: It’s interesting that you’ve brought up music twice and kind of how it played into the weekend. That’s—

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh yeah. I’ve always been on one—

 

[Interviewer]: That’s a good way to tie in kind of the themes too.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yes. And of all things.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Ugh. And then in the rumors were going around that somebody fired at the Guard and all everybody—that was a bunch of shit, but. And they were over by that part of campus so I wound going back. Oh, I forget—I’m trying to remember where we—when we left that area, but—I couldn’t just stand there and over this.

 

[Interviewer]: [01:00:54] Do you recall the attempts of dispersing the students after? I mean we’ve heard Glenn Frank telling people to leave and—

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yes. And that’s good he did because they would’ve started. Because they were wired and my sense was that they were wired and we all were. This was not expected and they’re human beings like anybody else, so it’s like— But what bothers me the most, I’ll get back to answering your question. What bothers more than, maybe as much as anything else about this whole thing, is nobody was held accountable. To this day. To this day. I hope that anything I have or anybody else has to say can bring it closer to something, because it’s just not right. Nobody was held accountable. They got away with it is what they did. I don’t blame the Guards for the most part. I mean, I’m sure some of them were deliberate, but I—the general or whatever that asshole’s name, President White, who was out of town. I just, I didn’t ever know that until the other day. And some—who’s the third one? I forget.

 

[Interviewer]: [01:02:10] Was it Governor Rhodes?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh, that son of a bitch. When he got reelected a few years later I almost left the country. I’m serious. I just—I’ll go to Ireland. That was—and that inflammatory talk—that ignited. And the Guard just come off two weeks living in tents on the Ohio turnpike for a strike.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah. Dealing with the Teamsters.

 

[Tony Malloy]: And some of it—that’s right. So, they—and they had just returned to their homes and stuff and different movies I’ve seen. But, so, you try to make sense of that—of those things and I—they were, “Come on we’re going back out.” And they probably had their opinions about things like we all do. So yes, I’ll show this kid, I mean, but it wasn’t just, it wasn’t that simple. And, so, we didn’t hang around much there, but I went there yesterday and I’ll probably go there again today or tomorrow. That scene just sticks with me. His face blown off—I can never.

 

So, we—or I, I think? I don’t know. Ray went looking around. And and we were hanging around outside Taylor [Hall] at, if you were approaching Taylor from the football field, it would be like going this way into—to this side of it. There’s this one guy, I remember, they talked about dirty tricks and the [White House] Plumbers [editor’s clarification: The White House Special Investigations Unit] and all that stuff with Nixon. And I said, I thought this reminds me of an example. There’s some guy with like a three-piece suit on. He’s, “Why don’t you hippies go back to wherever you came from or go back class if you’re even here.” Not, no very. Like, oh, he’s an illegal. I mean I remember that and I thought, Fuck you. And where did you come from? You showed up in your suit or you’re—. That guy. Well, I’m not that, I wasn’t that, but it was just disorganization, horrible communication, and no communication. We’re going to have a curfew on Sunday. Like, what are you talking about? And—

 

[Interviewer]: We, I mean, it would be so different today. Now they have flash alerts, emails, text. And that way, the message could’ve been, probably, spread quicker.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yeah. Right, because—. Plus, this had never happened, right? So, nobody—and I don’t know. So, we went—I went back around. I wandered around. I was in shock. I’m sure I was still positive all these years later. I tried to tell some people, some friends of mine I was coming here. I couldn’t get in to—I couldn’t even get the sentence complete. But, what was it, what was that—we started walking around. We wound up over by the old Hub and whatever the buildings are on that part of campus. And I wound up wandering there and I’d see people. “Hey what happened over there?” “I don’t know.” Then somebody say, “I thought I heard like a gun or something went off.” Maybe that’s how nobody, or most people didn’t know or not most, but I have. I knew and I said that. I said, “I don’t know, but I just saw some guy with his head blown off.” “What the—!” It was almost—you couldn’t believe it, right? And, and then what happens? A truck pulls up. A big truck of Ohio State, the patrol [editor’s clarification: Ohio State Highway Patrol]. And they get out, they’ve got wooden sticks in their hands. Got through to you. Smack somebody in the head—I mean it’s just so wrong. It’s like—and it’s like a joke. It’s like what are you doing here now? I don’t know what they did? There wasn’t and fighting that went on, that I know of, after that, but they got there late. I thought about that. They could’ve just swung their clubs and I didn’t want that to happen, but if—.

 

[Interviewer]: [01:06:49] Can you talk about kind of the days and weeks after May 4? What that was like for you.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh, Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: I know you mentioned the FBI as well, so if you want to touch into that story.

 

[Tony Malloy]: How am I doing? I’m going over probably. I talk too much all the time. Yes. Disbelief, depression, I’m sure. Yeah, I had depression. Trauma. All these years later and it still bothers me, because it still haunts me. And I’m so lucky, I’m so fortunate. It could’ve been me, I mean. And so, the weeks after. Oh, that sucked. Terrible, terrible. People I knew well. Should’ve killed all of them. Should’ve killed them all. They were—that was government property and, and they—and somebody said, “Well, they shot first.” And I’m thinking, You don’t know your shit from a hole in the ground. It was horrible. I went—my aunt, so we were home now they closed the school, so you go back to work. And I worked in a truck line when—before I came to Kent that fall, previous fall.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Tony Malloy]: ‘69. I should’ve known better. I went back there. “Hey, how is the Kent State kid doing?” “Hey, you hear the score of the ball game?” “National Guard four, Kent State nothing.” And he says, “Hey, I was there, I saw what happened. Yeah, well they shouldn’t have been there.” He says, “I saw what happened. Well, they should’ve shot you, too.” So, that went on for a long time. I mean, a long time. And I remember going in my house. I didn’t want to cry. I didn’t want my parents see me crying. So, I ran in, we had a big walk-in closet. My mom was down in the basement or something. I ran in there and just cried. It was stuff like that. Everybody questioning it. Everybody being an expert, everybody not knowing what the fuck they’re talking about. And not everybody. I mean, I had friends and people and they listened. But it wasn’t them. I mean, how many things have I witnessed in my life and said, “Oh, that’s too bad.” This Black kid got shot. That’s not right, okay. I mean, Joe Walsh said this, he said, because he was there of course. He says, “That’s the day I grew up.” And I remember, I think, saying that exact thing. I never and I never will forget it.

 

So, I had been working at the truck line. And I just asked and asking for frustration and anger. And then, my best friend in Cleveland, we went to high school together. He’s really—now he’s a Trumpy. So, we decided, me and my best friend Terry, I said, “We’re best friends and I don’t want anything to change that, so why don’t we just not talk about anything.” And we didn’t. Before he got elected, that asshole got elected, we just didn’t talk about it. He would say that too. He was a Marine. What do you call it where they’re—weekend work. He wanted—because he was going to get drafted. He got a full number. And, why’d I bring him up? But it was that kind of thing. As good of friends we were, he said, “No, it was illegal, against the law.” And I realized these people don’t want to hear this. They don’t want to hear it.

 

[Interviewer]: [01:10:51] Do, do you remember coming home and what your parents’ reaction was?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh yeah. I called my mom from my Glen Morris [apartments] and that was probably a mistake. “My baby!” It’s not funny but, oh, she was scared to death. And then, after the shooting, she couldn’t make calls because the lines all go down. Stuff like that happens. And so, she was worried shitless. My dad came home.

 

[Interviewer]: [01:11:25] Would you like me to pause the recording?

 

[Recording is paused]

 

[Interviewer]: Okay, we took a brief break and we are back to recording.

 

[Tony Malloy]: So, my dad came home from work. And he was, he was quiet. He just said, “Come on in here.” We sat down and he said, “Sit down.” So I sat down and, just he and I there, and he says, “So, what happened?” And I told him. And I cried and he just shook his head. And I thought, Oh, dad, no. He says, “I don’t want you to have—you or your brother—to have anything to do with this shit.” “I don’t know what the hell we’re doing over there” and all that. And I felt relieved and good about that. He never said, “Oh, those Commies.” Or any of that stuff. He wasn’t like that, but I didn’t know where he stood on it, but I sure did after that.

 

[Interviewer]: So, it sounded like as long as you were safe in that moment and going forward—

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh, yeah. And my mom the same way. And, well, I got drunk that night. I, I drank myself sober with the same—I drank so much I wasn’t even drunk, but I kept drinking. Well, I stopped drinking, by the way. A number of years. It’s been almost thirty-three years.

 

[Interviewer]: Wow, congratulations. That’s, that’s very impressive actually.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Well, that’s not the way I look at it. It’s not impressive, I’m just really very fortunate. Very, very fortunate. It could’ve been a lot worse.

 

[Interviewer]: There’s one thing that you mentioned to me that I would love to hear a little bit more.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Sure.

 

[Interviewer]: You mentioned that you had some communications or some dealings with the FBI. Can you tell me a bit about that?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh, yeah! Oh, I’m glad. I would not forgotten that for long. That was like the—that’s when I really flipped in from being, trying to be understanding, or have my judgements, and all that stuff. I realized I don’t know shit. And it was—what happened was the same friend of mine, Ray, who has passed away a long time ago. Somehow, he called the Dorothy Fuldheim Show. It was like a local—oh yeah, you’re familiar with that? And she said, “Well, I was at Kent, my roommate and I. Can we come down and talk to you or something like? He was a magician making, “Sure!” She comes out. We’re sitting there talking with her. She goes, “I’m going to put somebody on the show here on the noon news, but I want to find out the other side of the story and all I’ve heard so far, which is true, and I don’t believe—I believe some of the stuff and, you know, Jerry Rubin, I threw him off my show.” Or something like that, but she had a presence in Cleveland. So, we’re sitting back there in her office. I’m thinking, Oh, you know, we’ll be on the television. Which was so crazy. But she picked Ray because he was a smoothie. But he—she also picked a guy that wasn’t even on campus that day. Because she wanted to get another opinion. And so, he just says, “Well, it sounds like they, you know, they broke the law.” Or something like. So, she decides she’s going to put Ray on there, but then she takes this other guy instead. So, Ray somehow got ahold of somebody or maybe Dorothy Fuldheim mentioned. I don’t know. But the FBI wound up calling his house, I think is how it happened. They didn’t call my house. And I lived down the street from him. They said, “We’re going to send them out for an interview.”

 

So, here’s what happened. Those sons of bitches. The door went—the doorbell rings. My friend’s father and mother go to the front door and the father very carefully looked at their credentials and stuff. And I thought, Okay, yeah. So, he said this and I think this is word for word, “The Attorney General of the United States, John Mitchell, asked for you to come and talk with you about the incident at Kent last week.” This was like almost a week later. “So, what happened?” And I said, naiveté, so fucking naïve. I said, “Well, you know, they were just marching around like a comedy of errors. And then all of a sudden they just.” This guy jumps in my fucking face, “Don’t you think they were being threatened?” I just dropped it right there. I just, I just froze up.

 

[Interviewer]: [01:16:28] And how old were you at this time?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Twenty-two.

 

[Interviewer]: So, very young and, and handling the FBI having this very intense conversation.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yeah. Well, yeah. And here, I had that naïve. I wasn’t really a ‘the policemen’s always right’ type. I didn’t hate them, but I thought while—I’m not saying this in a negative way, but comparing it with, I don’t know, some Black guy. There’s, they. Very, there was no—not no, but I mean, I could see where something like that can happen. It was two white guys and the FBI and I had never been arrested or anything. I probably should’ve been. I mean, oh, but I, I’d never do anything criminal. I’d never been arrested or any of that. And I sat thinking, Well, this guy asked. He wants to know. So, I told him.

 

[Interviewer]: And they didn’t like your answer.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh, not at all. And I just shut up after that and Ray and he talked. I forget what he said, but I thought, Well then, they did this and they took the gun and. I don’t know how he didn’t—he’s a character. But it shocked me and it changed my life forever. Forever.

 

[Interviewer]: [01:17:54] After that conversation with the FBI, did they ever try contacting you again or was it a one-off?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Not a breath—

 

[Interviewer]: Interesting.

 

[Tony Malloy]: —wafting by me. No. Not at all. And I say, they—I probably stayed—I got to be in the record some place. “Look at this guy now, he’s this young scamp, he’s seventy-five and a half. What did he know? He’s so, what, behind the years.”

 

[Interviewer]: [01:18:19] So, one of the things I want to ask is, after dealing with the FBI, experiencing the aftermath of May 4—

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: —did you have any hesitations about coming back to campus that—

 

[Tony Malloy]: No.

 

[Interviewer]: —following quarter?

 

[Tony Malloy]: No.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Tony Malloy]: I came here in the summer. I came back in the summer. Sandy, my friend, we were roommates the next year. He lived in Tri-Towers, I think, or right around Tri-Towers. They opened up in the summer of ‘70 for classes. So, I came to see him. And what was your—how did I? Tell me the question, I want to tie it into this.

 

[Interviewer]: [01:19:08] Just trying to figure out kind of what—if there was any hesitation about coming back—

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh, yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: —to campus? [01:19:13] But also, I’m curious when you did arrive back in that summer, what was the environment like for you?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh, it was.

 

[Interviewer]: [01:19:20] Kind of back to normal or—?

 

[Tony Malloy]: No, not back to normal—

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Tony Malloy]: —but I wasn’t, I wasn’t afraid of anything. The memories were there and it pissed me off and I’m sure we talked about—he and I talked about it at that point. But no, I and I went back to my apartment. Just clean some stuff out of there and somebody else was with me for that. I kind of wanted to come back on campus. Kind of.

 

[Interviewer]: You weren’t going to let those events take away the rest of your experience is what it sounds like. You, you wanted to come back, which is—

 

[Tony Malloy]: Well, yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah.

 

[Tony Malloy]: I’ll show them. They’re, they’re not going to do that to us. I mean, it was—

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Remember driving out of town that day and there were FBI guys tops—the rooftops with rifles. I remember that. There were about seven people in my car. Taking to the airports and all that.

 

[Interviewer]: Sounds like a clown car having that many people come out.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh, it was. Oh, it was kind of fun. I was driving so I had plenty of room. But I was defiant, I guess you’d say. Or I was pissed, I was angry, I was afraid. But they’re not going to—that kind of thing. And that stigma about the people’s attitudes taught me you really never know what happens in a situation when you’re not really there. And even if you’re there, I mean, I didn’t see everything, right?

 

[Interviewer]: Right. Everyone’s perspective—

 

[Tony Malloy]: And we all have—

 

[Interviewer]: —is so unique in that moment.

 

[Tony Malloy]: And we all have judgments and we all have opinions and, and all that. But I thought well, I really know somebody. I tell them what I saw. It happened. Well—it’s all the whys and legal, illegal. All that crap. Everybody else’s garbage comes out and the politics has taught me that. I mean, it’s affected me in multiple ways. All that—

 

[Interviewer]: Well, that actually brings me to my next question.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Okay.

 

[Interviewer]: What you’re about to touch on is—[01:21:26] anything you want to share about how the experiences of the whole entire events kind of played out for you, how they’ve affected your life over the years?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yeah. Distrust for a lot of things. The system, especially if I see somebody coming on like, I don’t know? Like the MAGA, whatever. It’s been—it started before that. In the 1970s, they had two presidential elections. I think they were both in the Seventies. One, I forget who  got elected, but I remember I was so negative and despondent about the legal system and powerlessness and no accountability for wrongs like that. I started to question a lot of things, a lot of things. I still do today, to some extent. I’ve learned to let it go and it doesn’t mean you approve of it, it just means I—that’s it. I voted for, I can’t remember who the real Kennedy was. I voted, one of the presidential elections, for Alfred E. Neuman, from MAD Magazine, if you’ve ever. Okay. And the other one was Pat Paulsen, who was a comedian on the Smothers Brothers show in the Sixties. It was real hot. “You cannot a judge a woman by the size of her breast.” I’m sorry, but he was like—satire. So, I voted for—I mean, I was so negative and when, when—really when Rhodes got reelected, that was the most, maybe the most unkind of all, except for the shootings and murders and things.

 

[Interviewer]: Kind of like a slap in the face. Almost.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh, it was, it just—. So, I was really negative and I’ve gotten over that. I mean, I don’t judge everybody about everything anyhow, but I just kind of got—I had accepted. It really bugs me, and when I hear stuff, people talk about stuff and I just know it’s a bunch of shit. “Well, how do you know? You don’t.” I don’t know everything, but I know enough to at least be a listening participant without believing like brain putty. So, it definitely affected my life and to this day. And I’ve been looking forward to this because it’s something I felt I had to do and I wanted to do and to be heard or have a record of it so someday, maybe somewhere, somebody’s going to have to pay for it. And I’m not naïve enough to think that’ll happen, but after all the stuff that’s happened and there’s still nobody that was held accountable. It was the General, was the third one.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Governor Rhodes, General Del Corso was it? Or something like that. Yeah, and who was the third one? I don’t remember who that was.

 

[Interviewer]: Well, here we are fifty-three years later, on May 4.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: [01:25:18] Can you describe what it’s like being on campus fifty-three years later, the emotions of the commemoration events, and what it’s like to be back on campus?

 

[Tony Malloy]: It’s great to be back on campus. It’s great to be here after all these years. I feel like I’m doing my duty, of sorts, and I’m glad to do that. I’ve been looking forward to this. But not enough to go and check it out after almost thirty-two years, but I got here. I was going to come for the fiftieth [commemoration], but I had—

 

[Interviewer]: Covid.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yeah. Well, Covid.

 

[Interviewer]: That really wiped us out for a couple years there.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yeah and I kept saying, “Oh, Covid. I’ll wear a mask.” I’m glad to be back. I just hope something comes of this. I hear about indictments and all the other things. I’m thinking, If they can indict that asshole former president and they can—come on! I’m going, What happened here? We’ll see somebody, something, or somebody being held accountable for it. I’m glad I went here. It led to—it was part of leading to big changes in my life, otherwise. I got sober and I don’t talk about this all the time, but I got sober of thirty-three—almost, next month it’ll be thirty-three years that, that I said I’m not drinking. But it was when I was isolating a lot, I’d be drunk or something like that. It was a comfortable place to go to to think about this. Oh, let’s think about this for a while. And I did a lot of other things when I was drinking, but I got sober and went back to, I went—changed my career twice and then did good.

 

But I went back and I got a master’s degree from Loyola University in Organization Development, which is really kind of the people side of business. I loved it. I did that for about ten years, training, solicitation, and all that stuff. And then, I had ten years, my last ten years I was—I went back to school to be a certified drug and alcohol counselor.

 

[Interviewer]: Wonderful. That’s amazing.

 

[Tony Malloy]: And I really enjoyed that work more than anything I did and it was at the end.

 

[Interviewer]: That’s important work. It’s vital.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Oh, yeah, it is. It can be very difficult. Certainly for the clients or patients, but I liked it. I felt like I belonged, felt like I can try to help. And it doesn’t always work, but it isn’t about—that’s really the ultimate decision that the client makes. But working with them and all that, I go to meetings all the time, and I told them I was coming here—talked about coming here, doing this, and I feel good about that. I didn’t anticipate being able to talk to you and you would be tracking with all this stuff.

 

[Interviewer]: Well, I hope that the experience has been therapeutic, if anything. But I do want to ask, [01:28:44] is there anything else you’d like to talk about that I haven’t covered yet?

 

[Tony Malloy]: Only, it’s not a question as much as—well, it is a question, but how does it look here or how does it—what’s the sense you get on campus and, specifically, in this area? And the feeling of hope that it can make a difference. I mean you—I’m sure you have that more than just a little bit, but—

 

[Interviewer]: That’s a loaded question. It’s a good question, but I think, especially with May 4, I think with the May 4 Visitors Center and with the May 4 Collection in the [University] Archives—projects like this are so important. And I think that for students and researchers to listen to these perspectives really provides the history. It also provides a sense of hope in hearing how their predecessors dealt with this—these issues and how we can move forward. But I do think that there is a lot of hope. I think that May 4, the message of inquiring, reflecting, and learning—

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: —is so important.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: And I think that there’s a really good handle on it. I think the commemoration events also provide a really good opportunity for that. But there’s just so much going on in the world today. I mean—

 

[Tony Malloy]: I know. And yet, you have—the more it changes, the more it stays the same, and all that stuff. True. And that’s my attitude, that’s my attitude, anyhow. I just didn’t know it back then.

 

[Interviewer]: Right.

 

[Tony Malloy]: I’m just so—it’s so wonderful to be here. I was thinking I’d have a cathartic feeling. In a way I do, but it’s not about that. It’s really about what matters and what might it be like. What might change.

 

[Interviewer]: Well, Tony, I appreciate your participation in this project. I want to thank you on behalf of Special Collections and Archives for participating and if you don’t have any closing statements, I think we’ll end the recording.

 

[Tony Malloy]: Sure. Sure!

 

[Interviewer]: Okay. Great. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

 

[Tony Malloy]: You’re welcome. Thank you very much.

 

[Recording ends]

×