James Hallett, Oral History

Recorded: May 27, 2026

Interviewed by Liz Campion

Transcribed by 3PlayMedia

 

[00:00:02.40] [Interviewer]: This is Liz Campion speaking on Wednesday, May 27th, 2026, at Kent State University Library. As part of the Kent State Shootings Oral History Project, could you please state your name for the recording?

 

[00:00:15.92] [Jim Hallett]: My name is James Lee Hallett.

 

[00:00:18.64] [Interviewer]: Thank you, James. I'd like to begin with some brief information about your background, so we can get to know you a little bit better. Could you tell us where you were born and where you grew up?

 

[00:00:28.92] [Jim Hallett]: I was born in Akron, Ohio, and then I moved to Copley, Ohio when I was about five or six. And then I graduated high school there, at Copley High School.

 

[00:00:39.88] [Interviewer]: And what year did you first come to Kent State University?

 

[00:00:42.96] [Jim Hallett]: 1968. I graduated in fall '60—no let's see, I graduated, spring '68. So I started in the fall '68.

 

[00:00:53.88] [Interviewer]: And what brought you to Kent State? What was your major when you were a student?

 

[00:00:58.24] [Jim Hallett]: I had met the [track] coach, I was invited to be on the track team. I had a good career in high school and I was majoring in architecture. And my uncle was an architect major here, so I was kind of destined, I guess.

 

[00:01:12.87] [Interviewer]: Following family footsteps. Were you involved in any student organizations? And if so, can you describe your role in those organizations?

 

[00:01:21.61] [Jim Hallett]: Mostly just with projects within the architecture building and then running cross country and track. Between that and architecture, I was pretty busy. I can't think of anything offhand.

 

[00:01:33.21] [Interviewer]: Did you live on or off campus? And where?

 

[00:01:38.09] [Jim Hallett]: As a freshman, you're supposed to—I think we talked about this last time. We're supposed to live in the dorms, but I told them I lived at home in Akron. And I had a little place in Brady Lake.

 

[00:01:50.33] [Interviewer]: Can you describe your views on the Vietnam War when you first arrived on campus?

 

[00:01:56.49] [Jim Hallett]: Well, this situation, I mean, the feeling was pretty volatile back then. I had friends in high school that were already killed in Vietnam. I know that there was also 2-S deferments, so if you were in college, you didn't have to be—you weren't drafted. Yeah, I was against the war.

 

[00:02:21.38] [Interviewer]: How would you describe the prevailing attitudes or mood amongst the students in that spring of 1970?

 

[00:02:31.02] [Jim Hallett]: Prior, all the ROTC building burned down and there was definitely divisions. People were against the war, and there were a lot of illegal things going—well, in my opinion, illegal things going on, like the invasion of Cambodia. But there seemed to be divisions. Like my track coach didn't want us to go to any sort of rallies. There was definitely divisions on campus.

 

[00:02:58.51] [Interviewer]: Was there a threat to be kicked off the team if you had attended those?

 

[00:03:02.57] [Jim Hallett]: I never really pushed it. I went to them anyway. I just didn't do it and talk about it. We had a couple of all-Americans back then. Sammy Bair was a miler. And they kind of talked about it. I think they avoided the rallies, but they were certainly sympathetic.

 

[00:03:21.35] [Interviewer]: That kind of goes into my next question. How politically involved or active would you have described yourself at the time?

 

[00:03:29.23] [Jim Hallett]: Well, adjusting from high school to college was pretty busy as it was. But, I guess, just all my friends were against the war. And so I did lean that way. I had friends on the track team and we just ran track. We didn't talk about it. But I certainly was not being listened to.

 

[00:03:56.80] [Interviewer]: Was your family aware of the protests that were taking place on Kent's Campus? And if so, did any of them communicate their feelings about the protest or the war?

 

[00:04:07.64] [Jim Hallett]: My father was in World War II, and he served in Burma, India. But he was definitely—they weren't anti-military, but they were against the war. And they were against the draft because if you were drafted and went to Vietnam, you came back different, affected, or deceased. My parents were against it. My father even talked about if I did get drafted, we had conversations on going to Canada.

 

[00:04:39.10] [Interviewer]: So there were already plans in place.

 

[00:04:41.28] [Jim Hallett]: He was what they call, I don't know if you know a federalist. Yeah, so he was against the war again. But even though he did serve, I don't know how long he was in the—but he served World War II.

 

[00:04:54.60] [Interviewer]: Do you remember the environment in your classes in that spring of 1970 prior to the shootings?

 

[00:05:03.33] [Jim Hallett]: Yeah, the classes were just busy. I had calculus and physics, and then there were some design classes and architecture. And you noticed on campus, but the nice thing about it was, it was not political. So you went to school, you went to school. If you had defensive feelings, it was there. But like upstairs doing design, there were certainly some students that were against the protests and some for the protest, but it didn't seem to affect anything.

 

[00:05:37.65] [Interviewer]: Prior to the shootings, what was your sense of how local Kent community members perceived the Kent State students?

 

[00:05:48.45] [Jim Hallett]: I think in-town thought that we were pretty radical. I think there's some fear mongering by the government and so people responded to that. You just got along, you just tried to get along, but you didn't, so you didn't argue and fight about it, but you certainly felt you had certain feelings of people.

 

[00:06:20.28] [Interviewer]: Can you walk me through the days and events leading up to May 4 as you experienced them?

 

[00:06:29.10] [Jim Hallett]: Well, my family lived in Akron. On that Friday, I left campus and went to Akron to see my family and friends. And I had friends at Akron U[niversity]. I was aware of what was going on at campus about the ROTC Building and the riots, because we used to go to hear music on Water Street, too. I didn't go that weekend. But I knew about it. My parents expressed concern about it—just stay out of it, just go to school and stay out of trouble. I forgot the question.

 

[00:07:08.33] [Interviewer]: It was just to walk us through that weekend and the lead up to May 4.

 

[00:07:12.55] [Jim Hallett]: I was aware of it and went—but I had a calculus quiz on Monday. I knew I had to go to school. The campus was still open. I had heard, I followed it, and I knew that there was National Guard on campus. I don't think I realized how much, and I don't think I realized the atmosphere, the strenuous atmosphere that was going on.

 

[00:07:35.95] [Interviewer]: Do you remember what your first reaction was to seeing the National Guard on campus?

 

[00:07:41.47] [Jim Hallett]: Yeah, I had parked and I walked down to the Student Center. I was going to go over to the calculus building. It was in the front of campus, I don't know where it is now. And it was canceled, the class was canceled. I went and sat at the Student Center. You were asking about the atmosphere? I'm just getting lost a little bit.

 

[00:08:04.98] [Interviewer]: Just kind of your reaction to seeing those Guardsmen?

 

[00:08:07.80] [Jim Hallett]: Well, it was kind of surprising because they were lined up at the Student Center and you could see them and people were looking at them. They just seemed there. They seemed to be guarding the ROTC Building, which you could see from there. It just seemed really odd, like something bad was going to happen.

 

[00:08:25.60] [Interviewer]: A little bit of an eerie feeling. How did you interpret their actions and presence prior to the shootings?

 

[00:08:33.12] [Jim Hallett]: Well, I had heard that in Ohio, there was a [Teamster] truckers’ strike. And so I knew the National Guard had come from the truckers strike, so they came right here. I didn't have any ill feelings with them. It was more the leadership, like Governor Rhodes and [President Richard] Nixon. And they were kind of, like I said, fear mongering.

 

I realized—I wasn't here, but I realized the events. I don't know if it was Friday night or Saturday night when they burned the ROTC Building. I knew that was volatile. But to call out the National Guard and to have him there, it seems a little overkill. But like I said, I wasn't there, so I don't know what it felt like.

 

[00:09:16.92] [Interviewer]: What was your reaction coming to campus on Monday and learning about the ROTC fire and the events that took place downtown?

 

[00:09:26.70] [Jim Hallett]: The quiz was canceled, and I think I was figuring out the rest of my day—I can't remember, I think I had some design classes at there. I just sat and you just kind of figuring out your day, and you were looking around at the National Guard. And I forgot the question again.

 

[00:09:48.04] [Interviewer]: That's fine. It was—

 

[00:09:49.38] [Jim Hallett]: I'm sorry.

 

[00:09:50.35] [Interviewer]: No apologies. It was asking how, in the lead up to the shootings—let's skip that. Yeah, because I think I want us to walk through the events of that day.

 

[00:10:10.83] [Jim Hallett]: It felt tense, but it didn't feel—you had class.

 

[00:10:15.51] [Interviewer]: Were you aware that a rally was to take place that day?

 

[00:10:19.55] [Jim Hallett]: No. I was at the Student Center and I think I was going to get—I was just sitting outside. It was the first nice day in the spring for Kent. That was good. So I sat down and then, like I told you last time, somebody walked up to me and handed me, it was construction paper, bright blue mimeograph. And it just said there was a rally on the Commons, at the Victory Bell, at noon. And this was about maybe—I'm going to guess like 10:30 [AM], 11:00 [AM].

 

[00:10:52.62] [Interviewer]: So not that far?

 

[00:10:55.64] [Jim Hallett]: No, I didn't know anything about it. I was handed this paper. I wish I had kept it.

 

[00:11:01.04] [Interviewer]: Can you walk us through the events of May 4, as you experienced them?

 

[00:11:05.68] [Jim Hallett]: Well, after I was handed that paper, people started gathering because it was getting close to that time. And so people were down there and you could, I think you could hear the bell. I can't actually recall. But I remember them standing over there speaking and the bell was over here and the Student Center was here, and the National Guard were hanging around in between. And they weren't really doing anything.

 

But I remember—they had a megaphone and they were saying that—I remember people talking and they were saying that the assembly was illegal because there was Martial Law on campus, I think. And you couldn't have more than three or four people in a group, theoretically.

 

I saw them start to line up and they were coming close to the Student Center. They weren't coming at anything. They were just kind of—looked like they were—nobody looked confusing. A lot of the students were walking up towards Taylor Hall, up where the daffodils are now, at Blanket Hill. I just walked over that way because I was going to go up to—I had an office or desk up on Taylor Hall. I was going to head up there, so I went up into the trees. I wanted to support them, and I was curious, but it was tense. You could just feel like this, it was not a good thing.

 

Should I just keep going on?

 

[00:12:38.55] [Interviewer]: Yeah, absolutely.

 

[00:12:40.85] [Jim Hallett]: I was up in the trees and I was looking down. And then I remember the soldiers lining up and they were facing Taylor Hall and across that big field across the Commons. And they got on a megaphone and a jeep pulled up in between. And they said that this was an illegal assembly and everybody had to leave.

 

And I remember there was stuff being thrown back for—I can't remember. I don't think it was tear gas yet. But some students went down and waved flags, kind of egging each other on. It was kind of almost, I don't want to say silly, but it seemed kind of like, what's the point of this, what's going to happen here? Of course, you never thought that live ammunition either.

 

You didn't feel like your life was threatened. It was just—so anyway, they came back out and then the Jeep went back over, and then they said, they gave us a timeline. I think they warned, two or three times and then they started to march. I think they had their bayonets and they started to march across the field towards—across the field, up towards Taylor Hall and Blanket Hill. And then that's when I first heard the first tear gas was being shot.

 

So one landed. It was pretty breezy day, so it didn't land close to me, but I got whiffs of it. I got whiffed. And some students were running up over the hill and they were going around Taylor Hall, and the soldiers were just marching up towards Taylor Hall. When I got gassed, you've never been gassed, you don't know what's going on. I went into the back of Taylor Hall. As soon as you go in the back door, there's a bathroom there. And there was somebody in there who had the old-fashioned roller, cloth roller, and he was rolling them down, and he was cutting squares off, and he was soaking them in water. [00:14:44.93] And he was passing them out. And there was not a lot of people, but there were some people going in there to wash it off your face. I took a cloth and washed it off my face, and I stuck my face in the sink. And I didn't get too bad, so it wasn't too bad.

 

Then I went upstairs. You're still kind of confused on what's going on. I went upstairs to my desk—it was on the top floor, and I put stuff in my desk. It might have been my books because I remember when I left, I didn't have any books. I don't think I dropped them, so, I put stuff up there. Then I went back downstairs and I came out the front of the building. When I came out the front of the building, I came out to—would be the left door facing out, coming out closest to the parking lot. I looked to the left and in between the two buildings, I think it's Prentice Hall, I'm not sure. I saw a line of soldiers marching up. They were really close because there's not much room, there's a balcony there.

 

Then I saw one of my friends in architecture school and I talked to him for a few minutes. And then I looked the other way and there was soldiers marching up the other side. They got to the top of the hill, and then the ones on my left just marched down through the parking lot to where that practice field was. And then the other soldiers went down that way, too.

 

And the students, it seemed like they were trying to split the students, like there was a group and there was a lot of yelling and just get off campus and that kind of stuff. I'm sure they were swearing. They tried to go after groups and try to split the groups in two, it seemed to me. I don't really know their strategy.

 

[00:16:29.37] I stayed on the balcony because I still wasn't sure what I was going to do. And I watched down on the football field and they went down on the practice football field. And then I saw the soldiers—they got on their knees and lined up and bent down and pointed guns at everybody.

 

And they were pretty far away, like fifty yards, I would say—I mean, I'm guessing, but it seemed pretty far to me. I just kind of was watching in disbelief. And then I saw the guy in a suit, I don't know who he was, but he had a gas mask pulled up top of his head, and he was in a suit. And looked like he got together with some of the leaders, there were two or three of them. And they had a powwow. And then you saw the other soldiers, they gathered in a group, and then they got back together.

 

I noticed a couple students ran onto the field and were waving flags and yelling to get out of campus and stuff like that. But, I mean, they were far enough away. And I really didn't see a lot of things being thrown. I think there was gas canisters tossed back and forth and maybe a couple of rocks. But, I mean, it wasn't like a rush and a bombardment, or anything like that.

 

I still didn't quite feel threatened. It was just really tense. Seemed really like what’s the purpose of this. On both sides, to be honest, I could see the students' anger because I was pretty angry.

 

They came back and they started marching back up the hill. They walked up that hill towards the Pagoda. And then I was with my friend and he was kind of a little bit more aggressive—he wasn't a militant, but he was a little more aggressive. And I just remember telling him that I was going to leave. I said, “I just don't see anything good coming of this today.” And so I think we talked about it. We'll see if there's protests or what's going to happen. But it was just marching back and forth.

 

[00:18:32.39] [Interviewer]: So you just had a feeling--

 

[00:18:32.67] [Jim Hallett]: And there was gas, and it was tense and people were yelling. They marched up the hill. And when they marched up the hill, they got were not to the top. But they were about, I don't know, three quarters of the way up. I went down the stairs right next to the parking lot. And then I was going towards—there was like a driveway. And I was going through the driveway just right before the parking lot. I think that's where Jeffrey [Miller] was killed on the right—that driveway. And then I heard one shot. And I thought it was gas and I had already been gassed, so it just freaked me out. And I started running. I ran through the parking lot.

 

I was looking at, when I was over the other day, it was on the right side, there's two aisles. I was on the right side and I started heading towards the first car and I saw people—I started hearing a lot of shots. I still didn't really—I thought it was still tear gas, I think. I don't know what I thought. But that's when I saw people ducking behind cars and dust flying up on the ground.

 

I went towards the first car in the first line. I was heading that way, and then I saw the window shatter in the car. And I saw people ducking behind the car. I turned left and I went through the aisle to go through the parking lot. And I just saw people ducking and hiding behind cars.

 

I ran all the way through the parking lot, and by the time I got to the end, shooting, I still don't think I knew who was shooting. To be honest, I really don't know. I think I was starting to figure it out, I better get out of here. And that's when I saw, in front of me at the end of the parking lot, I saw this guy fall over forwards. And he was going away from the parking lot, too. And the shooting had stopped, so I was running by him, I didn't think he was hurt. But when I went by him—should I say his name?

 

[00:20:48.40] [Interviewer]: Yes, absolutely.

 

[00:20:49.58] [Jim Hallett]: I found out later his name was Donald [Scott] Mackenzie, from his injuries. And thank God, he was okay. But when I passed him, I saw him—he was laying face down and there was a hole in his neck and it was bloody, but it was just like a hole. You could tell he was hurt, but you didn't know, I didn't—still wasn't aware.

 

I stopped and I can't remember if I spoke to him, but I touched him and turned him over, and he had a big hole on the right side of his cheek because when the bullet entered, it was a small hole but when it exits, it kind of looked like it blew up in his face.

 

I'm sure I was kind of in shock. But anyway, I had on a jacket and a jersey. And I took off the jersey and I helped him up and I put it, I said, “Hold this to your face.” And I think he put it around his head, so he held it. My car was in that parking lot where the gym is now. I got him to the car, and he walked pretty good, I remember he walked pretty good. I was really surprised because—

 

[00:22:01.23] [Interviewer]: Especially going through that trauma, to be able to walk.

 

[00:22:03.97] [Jim Hallett]: Yeah, I would have thought. But he did pretty good. And I got him to the car and I put him in the car. And then in my mind, I didn't talk to him much. I just remember saying reassuring things. And he kept saying, I think I'm going to die, do you think I'm going to die?

 

And then I remember thinking, the Health Center was right over there. But then I thought to myself, well, that's stupid, because the National Guard are everywhere. And they're just going to arrest us or hurt us or do something else.

 

I got in the car and then I remembered where Ravenna Hospital [editor’s clarification: Robinson Memorial Portage County Hospital] was. I went out the front—got him in the car and went out to front of campus, and he had that wrapped around his head. And we went out to the front of campus and went down I think it's [SR] 59. And I don't remember driving too much, so I probably was driving too fast.

 

And he kept—it was just I'm a reassuring talk, but a kind of a panicky thing. I don't know if he said, “I think I'm going to die,” but I remember him saying, “I'm going to die, am I going to die?” And I just said, “Hold that to your head. We'll be at the hospital real soon. You're doing good,” that kind of stuff.

 

And we got to the hospital and I pulled up to the emergency room. And I got out of my driver's side to walk around to help him go into the hospital. But by the time I got to his door, he had opened the door and started running. Not running fast, but he was going really fast towards the front doors. I remember standing there looking at him and I was amazed that he could do that for one. And then I got scared, like, should I go in? What are they going to do to me? Are they going to arrest me?

 

I saw personnel coming out. I thought he's got the help he needs. I think I'm just going to get out of here. I don't know what's going on. Obviously, I knew they were shooting at us, so I really had no idea if they were arresting or still shooting, because when I read afterwards, they almost were still shooting from what I read, I don't know, because there was a professor [Glenn Frank] that calmed everybody down.

 

[00:24:14.93] [Interviewer]: When you got back into your car, what was your first reaction? Was it kind of a sigh of relief that you had made it there with him? Was it anxiety, a mix of emotions?

 

[00:24:27.21] [Jim Hallett]: Yeah, it was anxiety. I was glad he was in there. And then I just started thinking, where do I go? What do I do? Do I go back and try to help some of my friends? Do I go see? Are they still shooting us? I decided because—what was I? I was eighteen. No, no, I was twenty, no, I was nineteen.

 

[00:24:50.12] [Interviewer]: Still young.

 

[00:24:51.34] [Jim Hallett]: I thought I'd go see my dad. He worked in Akron at the hardware and supply company. It was a big company and he was vice president, and they did, they sold rubber, factory tools and things like that. And I used to work there during the summer, doing inventory and stuff. I thought, well, I'll go see him.  I jumped on and I went to [Ohio State Route] 43 and I went down the freeway. And I was listening to the news. I remember turning on the news to see what had happened. I remember the news coming on and they were saying that students were shot, but they were still not sure what was going on. They just said that some students were shot. I don't even think they said they were killed.

 

[00:25:41.27] [Interviewer]: It's not like the instant news we have today, where you get a text message or alert.

 

[00:25:47.27] [Jim Hallett]: No. And it's about, what is it? Like twenty-five minute drive. I don't remember a whole lot of it, but I went downtown because my family lived in Copley. I went downtown to Akron and I went into his building. They knew me from working there in the summer, like the secretaries and some of the office people, and there was, there was like a floor plan to where you could go in and buy things. So anyway, they all knew me.

 

I remember they had an elevator. I went into the elevator, and then I went upstairs, and that's where all the office people were. And I was walking down the hall, and there were a lot of—like the old days, we see there were a lot of secretaries. I don't know, who knows what they did.

 

And they were saying hi to me, and I don't remember talking to anybody and I don't even know what I look like. I don't think I had any blood on me, I don't remember. Anyway, there was a big office. I asked where my dad was, and there was a big office meeting room. And there were maybe—there was double doors. I remember I opened the double doors and there was like, maybe a table with ten to fifteen people, and they were having some sort of meeting. And I just started saying, “Dad, can I talk to you? They shot us, they shot us.”

 

I remember he was a nice gentleman, but he was in the National Guard and he worked for my dad. And he was in the National Guard, but he wasn't there that day. And I remember him saying that it was impossible that they wouldn't shoot their own students. And he's a member of the National Guard.

 

[00:27:26.31] And so my dad, he could see I was really upset. He came and he got me and he took me out to another room. And then I told him what I knew had happened. And that someone got hurt and I took him to the hospital and they were shooting at us, and I probably just rambled on and on.

 

He kind of calmed me down and then he said he wanted me to go home and he'd meet me at home. And then he asked, I think I told you he asked if there was blood on the car, and I said I wasn't sure, and he goes, “Well, check first.” And he goes, “I want you to wash up and wash the car and not upset your mother. But go home and tell her you're okay.” And he said, “I'll call her and tell her you're on your way home and you haven't been shot” because he didn't know what was going on. They were in the news. But I'm sure my mom, she was like a soap opera, news junkie. So, I'm sure she knew.

 

Anyway, so then I went down and I stopped somewhere and just kind of wiped things off. And it wasn't bad, so I must say I don't think he was bleeding too much, or maybe it went into the shirt, I don't really know.

 

But anyway, I got home and my mom was watching. I remember it was Walter Cronkite and he was talking about and they were kind of talking in disbelief about it. And then my mom, you know how moms are, wanted to give me something to eat, hug me, and all that kind of stuff. I tried to calm myself because she was a sensitive person—I just did that. And then I was just kind of waiting for my dad to get home, see what we were going to do.

 

[00:29:12.63] [Interviewer]: What emotions were you experiencing upon arriving at home and learning about that people had actually been killed and wounded?

 

[00:29:26.36] [Jim Hallett]: It was almost kind of still in disbelief. I remember feeling—you started hearing that four people were shot and killed. I remember wondering if that guy I took was okay, if Donald was okay. I think there was just a lot of confusion, there was some fear. There was like, what I do now? There was like an instant reaction was kind of numb. What do I do? Do I help my friends? And then my dad got home, and we started making plans to try to be—what can we do to help? Because I had friends on campus. It was kind of just a feeling of helplessness, and fear, and anxiety. But then not wanting to upset your mom and stuff like that.

 

[00:30:25.72] [Interviewer]: What were the days and weeks like after May 4 for you?

 

[00:30:30.25] [Jim Hallett]: Well, right after the shootings, to my mom and dad, they were always very supportive of everybody in high school. And so they were scared again. They helped me. They said I could try to get a hold of some of my friends, and that they could—if I wanted to go get them, I could go get them and spend the night.

 

My mom is really worried, didn't want me to go. But I said I wouldn't go back on campus. And then I had heard the news that they had—I don't know if this was true. They were surrounded campus and searching dormitory rooms and doing all that.

 

I got hold—I called one friend and said they were going to meet me off campus, and I went to get them. Anyway, my mom hid, I'm going to guess six to seven people in our basement, and she fed them and just let us hide down there, because you almost felt like you needed to hide. You just weren't sure, are they looking for us? I didn't know what was going on.

 

[00:31:32.04] [Interviewer]: Sounds like a safe space, though.

 

[00:31:33.88] [Jim Hallett]: Then afterwards, I got my friends back on campus. And then after that, I think-- because you were asking about the days after, I think it was just trying to figure out your life, because now I didn't know who to call about school. I didn't know what to school. I couldn't think about school. I think I told you we were designing a city hall in Streetsboro. There were a lot of projects. It was May, so the semester was closing up. I'm sure there were exams.

 

And I can remember just seeing my friends. I think I used to go run through the trails in Cuyahoga Valley. I probably went down to the woods and different stuff. But I didn't come back up to Kent. I don't think I came back. Well, I think I passed through to go to Brady Lake to get my stuff.

 

[00:32:29.87] [Interviewer]: To rephrase an earlier question, what was your sense of how local Kent community members perceived the Kent State students after May 4?

 

[00:32:39.79] [Jim Hallett]: Again, it was a mix. I think people—there was a lot of blame on the students, which was unbelievable to me that they would blame the students. And you wonder why in the world were there with live ammunition, even during the trucker strike, the truckers were fighting back and throwing rocks off the bridges, I don't know. That's why the National Guard were on the bridges.

 

But definitely, there was a mix. I think everyone on campus was kind of aghast, the professors. But I really didn't see anybody else again. And so when I did go downtown, this was maybe weeks after, there was a definite feeling of us. Like there wasn't confrontation in the community or with people.

 

[00:33:35.74] [Interviewer]: Do you recall any faculty, staff, or administrators addressing the events publicly or privately once students returned?

 

[00:33:45.96] [Jim Hallett]: Well, I didn't return. I do remember getting—I don't think we didn't have emails in those days, it must have been a phone call. And that was about two weeks after they were looking for me to finish a class. And so they wanted to meet off campus in Streetsboro because we were doing the city hall and I was supposed to meet there. And I had no clue what was going on with my other classes. My mind wasn't on school—the war and you just try to shoot me. And I wasn't thinking about finishing exams. I was kind of a mess probably more when I think back about it. I forgot the question.

 

[00:34:28.23] [Interviewer]: No, you answered it. How have the events surrounding May 4 and its aftermath impacted you personally, professionally, and/or politically?

 

[00:34:42.05] [Jim Hallett]: Well, professionally, because I couldn't finish. I really had trouble even talking to them. Now that I think about it, no one really tried to do any outreach for me. I had that one phone call to go to this design class, but my other professors, I never heard from anybody again.

 

I don't remember, it was a letter, I'm sure it was a letter—they wouldn't have called me. And they flunked me out. I think it was actually a 0.00 grade point average for that quarter, because I didn't finish any quizzes or exams, so I didn't do my design.

 

Then I decided to do some traveling, so I started traveling. And then I heard—and I can't remember if this was official or not, but well, I was traveling, and then I did think about it because I did go to Mexico. I went to live up in the mountains in New Mexico and Colorado. There was a small town, maybe twelve cabins—it's called Raymond, it was really nice.

 

I just wanted to isolate myself. And you know the positive things because you asked that last time is that while I was in California, I met my wife, so that was a real positive. And then after I met her, I did some more research on what I could do for my future. I was told if I come back to Kent, I had to meet with the dean and then I had to go through this, I think it was called the General Forgiveness Program. I found out that I couldn't go to another school because I flunked out and it would be hard to explain.

 

[00:36:42.45] So if I came back to Kent and I entered back on the General Forgiveness Program on probation, and I did okay, they would drop that quarter. I came back with my wife. And then I think we moved back out to Brady Lake because I liked it out there. Have you ever been? Oh, it's pretty cool.

 

I went back out to Brady Lake and I entered into—I changed my major to psychology. And I think it was just because all those five years traveling and opening my eyes and some protests, and my wife was real supportive. She was Jamaican East Indian, but I met her in San Diego. And she was real helpful and supportive.

 

Then when I got there, I had some monies from the track team, but I lost all everything. I got a job at a hospital. And I worked full-time at a hospital and went to school full-time. I think I took twelve hours, maybe more, but I think it was probably just twelve for psychology.

 

[00:38:00.34] [Interviewer]: Do you think that stemmed in response to the aftermath?

 

[00:38:05.48] [Jim Hallett]: Oh, definitely. And that was just all so consuming. I knew that the track coach was—he wasn't mean or militant about it, but I knew his he wasn't crazy about what happened. I never saw him again either. I didn't run track. I just worked and tried to finish my degree.

 

After I got my grades up, it was easy to do. I got my grades. And I was taken off probation. And then I switched schools and I switched to Trent, what was the name of it? Trenton—no, Thomas Edison [State University] in Trenton, New Jersey. And I finished my degree there.

 

[00:38:50.83] [Interviewer]: Were you hesitant to come back to Kent State?

 

[00:38:54.13] [Jim Hallett]: Yeah, and I avoided that. I never went to Taylor Hall. I never went to that parking lot. In fact, probably the stuff in my desk, I have no clue—my books. I don't know what happened there. Because they had desks and you could lock them, so you could hide your designs because it was pretty competitive.

 

[00:39:11.71] [Interviewer]: It still is.

 

[00:39:12.93] [Jim Hallett]: It still is. I have no clue what happened. I didn't go there. I didn't go to that thing. I would avoid it. Most of my classes, I think, were up front, where the math class and that's where the psychology department was. I kind of just stayed up in that area and went home and went back. I wasn't really socially—I just worked and saw my wife.

 

[00:39:37.30] [Interviewer]: Have you had any communication with Donald Scott Mackenzie since May 4th, 1970?

 

[00:39:42.80] [Jim Hallett]: No. I was in Hawaii, this was about—my wife passed away in 2004, in Hawaii, and after that, I remember I think I just kind of wanted to settle things in my life. It was really not going well. I wrote to Alan Canfora, emailed him, and I sent just a brief summary that I had helped Donald to the hospital, and I just I read that he was okay and I knew who it was from the injuries and where I found him. Was it possible to talk to him?

 

And I said, like I said, if he doesn't want to, that's fine. But I said, just help me with maybe some closure or I wasn't sure where I was looking for. And he wrote me back and he said that he would send him my email. And then I never heard anything from either one of them again.

 

[00:40:48.25] [Interviewer]: I imagine it was a relief to find out that he was indeed okay, though.

 

[00:40:52.85] [Jim Hallett]: Oh, yeah, yeah, because I found out pretty soon afterwards because all the news showed you maps and had their names and who was killed and where. And so I knew it was him because he was the farthest away. And I knew that he got shot in the neck—so I knew it was him. And yeah, it was nice to know he was okay. I had a pretty good feeling, though, the way he--

 

[00:41:17.28] [Interviewer]: Very mobile sound.

 

[00:41:18.84] [Jim Hallett]: Got up and got out of there. Yeah, he was pretty cool.

 

[00:41:22.04] [Interviewer]: Prior to doing this interview, you had mentioned that you had never spoken about this before. What made it difficult to speak about it until today?

 

[00:41:41.37] [Jim Hallett]: I didn't like the feelings it was bringing up, and I thought about it. You can tell—I can still feel anxious, I still get teary-eyed, I'm not sure why that is. There's some guilt. Why did you live? And stuff like that. What was the question? I drift off into it.

 

[00:42:05.58] [Interviewer]: No, it was just asking what made this difficult to speak about.

 

[00:42:11.96] [Jim Hallett]: I think it was just kind of like, I didn't want to draw attention to myself. I didn't want to bring up the bad feelings. I didn't want to--

 

[00:42:21.25] [Interviewer]: Relive it.

 

[00:42:22.31] [Jim Hallett]: Yeah, I didn't want to relive it. I just kind of ignored it. And I remember I talked to—even my architect uncle, he never knew about it until twenty years after. He had no clue why I quit school. I talked to my dad about it, and I talked to a few close friends. And then it was just you carry on with life, you just didn't think about it. You didn't want to think about it, so I didn't.

 

[00:42:51.29] [Interviewer]: Have you returned to campus to attend any of the commemorative events or memorials?

 

[00:42:56.37] [Jim Hallett]: No. The first time I actually visited the site was when I saw you a week or two ago.

 

[00:43:02.23] [Interviewer]: Can you walk us through what you experienced in your visit towards the site last week?

 

[00:43:10.73] [Jim Hallett]: I mean, it was really emotional. I remember it seemed a lot smaller, everything seemed smaller. I actually went in the back and went to the bathroom that I went in. I kind of walked my steps. I was amazed at how close the young people were murdered.

 

One right to the right of me, one right to the left. I visited each spot. It was like being—well, I mean, not in a cemetery, but it was like paying respects and thinking about them and feeling just bad for them. And how I still just—you just wonder how all this happened. How the fuck did all this happen?

 

[00:44:00.91] [Interviewer]: What lessons do you hope future generations will take away from May 4th, 1970?

 

[00:44:08.03] [Jim Hallett]: Well, I hope that there's not a fear of—there's times that we need to speak up and have protest. I did attend—I remember it might have been during Tent City or something when they were going to do something. I think I was just going to go to a different school, but I was at the front of campus, I remember. And there was rumors that the football team and some of the fraternities were—now that you mention it, weren't happy with the protests and that they were out causing trouble. That was rumors, I didn't personally see it.

 

But I remember I was up in the math building or psychology building in the front of campus on 59. There were all the nice, old buildings are. And I think there was a protest at Tent City, I didn't go back there. But I went up to the building, and you could see, inside the building, you could see—some gentlemen with Billy Clubs. So that was it, I just said, no, I'm not doing it again.

 

But anyway, the point is, I think there's a time and place for protest. I think now to not be so naive, to have a plan or escape, go to the friend. Like even now, with protests, with our present administration, there's a lot different feeling—I went to one in Akron.

 

And you were looking behind your back. I still do that. But I would certainly say the lesson is, the protests are important. They're good for this country. Don't be naive. You don't know what they're going to do.

 

[00:46:09.25] [Interviewer]: Is there anything else you'd like to talk about that we haven't covered today?

 

[00:46:17.78] [Jim Hallett]: No, I thought a lot about when you brought it up, the positives the last time, I did a lot of traveling and I tried—I was always empathetic, but I was—in those days, I was much more focused on being an architect and trying to make the Olympics, that kind of thing.

 

But I traveled to India, Japan, Turkey. I started traveling a lot. And being more with the people, not like resort type, just going in with there, there was a lot of spiritual stuff. I'm sure a lot of that brought up the meaning of life kind of thing. You work for something and how drastic it can change in a moment. You could leave here now and get hit by a car or that kind of thing. It's learning to adjust in life. I mean, this is a drastic adjustment. But stuff happens. I'm not saying it should happen, but it does happen.

 

[00:47:19.59] [Interviewer]: It sounds like you did a lot of soul searching and self-reflection and therapy, whether it was travel or the spirituality that you mentioned.

 

[00:47:29.13] [Jim Hallett]: Yeah. And then I used a lot of that. We started a program in Hawaii. I moved there in the late ‘90s. I lived in Canada for a while, yeah, I moved to Canada, and I worked for the city of Toronto in the mental health field. And I lived there for about three years. And then my wife and son outvoted me. I wanted to stay; they wanted to come back. I forgot where we were talking about. I just keep drifting back to that.

 

[00:48:00.65] [Interviewer]: Don't apologize. It was just if there was anything else you wanted to cover.

 

[00:48:07.27] [Jim Hallett]: No, I think that finally it was useful. I appreciate you letting me talk about it. I think that really helped. Like I said, reading about that gentleman that was shot in the chest, it didn't talk about it. When I read about his article in the paper, and he said he didn't talk to anybody about it for twenty or thirty years, I'm going, wow, I thought I was the only one like that.

 

And I imagine then you think about the thousands of people that were there that day and how it changed their lives and what happened. I mean, I was amazed at the gentleman that got shot in the chest, went back to architecture school, I said, well.

 

But I used a lot of, I guess, growth and understanding and the therapy. I was a good therapist. I was really good at what I did. And we started a program in Hawaii. They used to, if kids were mentally ill or in trouble with the courts. If they were really having trouble, they sent them to the mainland. That's what they call the United States in Hawaii. But we started a program there, so we could keep kids in Hawaii, so they could be with their family. And then I did that for maybe twenty-five years.

 

And I talked about it once to one person, I think of the whole time there. I forget how it came up. We were in a meeting and this woman, another therapist had asked about schooling or something. And then she said that she went—she didn't know about Kent in general. And she looked it up just to look where the school was. And then all this pops up, then she took me aside and asked about it. But other than that, I don't think. But anyway, I used all the useful growth and spiritual growth. I used it, I thought, to a good purpose.

 

[00:49:55.69] [Interviewer]: Well, I'm hoping that this project can provide you some release in some aspect. And like you mentioned, there were probably thousands of people there. And we're hoping to get as many perspectives as possible. And I just want to thank you again for participating in this.

 

[00:50:12.36] [Jim Hallett]: Do you have a lot of people coming in, talking?

 

[00:50:14.76] [Interviewer]: Yeah, especially around May 4, we see an uptick.

 

[00:50:18.54] [Jim Hallett]: That's really good. And I'm thrilled with the archives because I think we talked last time. It's like they kind of want to just sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn't happen and that kind of stuff, and that was no good.

 

Now, even when I was over there the other day to see the remarks and the stones people left on the graves and peace signs, and there still seemed to be a real camaraderie, which that really helped heal. To be honest, talking to you helped a lot. I followed your advice and listened to what you said, that really helped a lot.

 

[00:50:52.92] [Interviewer]: Good, I'm glad.

 

[00:50:54.78] [Jim Hallett]: If you want me to write a letter to your boss or whatever, I'd be happy to say that this was really helpful.

 

[00:51:01.72] [Interviewer]: All right, well, thank you again for participating. I'm going to end the recording.

 

[End of Recording]

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