Stephen Titchenal, Oral History

Recorded: March 1, 2010
Interviewed by Craig Simpson
Transcribed by Stephanie Tulley

Note: This transcript includes geo-references to locations that are discussed in the oral history. Geographical names linked in the transcript will open in a new window or tab that takes you to that location information and map in the Mapping May 4 project. To request a transcript without geo-reference links included, please contact Kent State University Special Collections & Archives.

[Interviewer]: Good afternoon. The date is March 1st, 2010. And my name is Craig Simpson. We are conducting an interview today for the KentState Shootings Oral History Project, and could you please state your name?

[Stephen Titchenal]: Stephen Titchenal.

[Interviewer]: Where were you born, Stephen?

[Stephen Titchenal]: In Los Angeles, California.

[Interviewer]: When did you come to KentState?

[Stephen Titchenal]: In the Fall of 1968.

[Interviewer]: Alright. What made you decide to come here all the way from L.A.?

[Stephen Titchenal]: Well, actually, I've lived all over the country--

[Interviewer]: Okay, so with stops in between [laughs].

[Stephen Titchenal]: Right. And I came to Berea, Ohio in 1967. So my senior year was at BereaHigh School, and then Kent was an appropriate choice for living in Berea.

[Interviewer]: Okay.

[Stephen Titchenal]: And I was interested--I was going into the College of Education, which was a good college.

[Interviewer]: So that was your major?

[Stephen Titchenal]: Yeah.

[Interviewer]: How would you describe the University prior to 1970, just in terms of the general atmosphere?

[Stephen Titchenal]: Well, I guess a typical college campus. I was active in a lot of organizations. So, I enjoyed my time at Kent . I spent as much time being involved outside of the courses as inside the courses. One of the things I got involved in was WKSU. So even though that wasn't my degree interest, um, I ended up volunteering there and I worked in their, the news department. They had an AM station and a FM station, and I actually worked for both. And um, I was involved in a number of other organizations, not all of whom I can even remember any longer. And I remember all the activities outside of courses as much as the time spent in class as being of interest to me. So--

[Interviewer]: No, that's fine. Being involved with WKSU, was there a lot of coverage on the protest movement in KentState on campus during through years? Do you recall?

[Stephen Titchenal]: Um, I don't recall that in particular. I wasn't heavily involved in the protest movement or anything. I was as much interested in just how a radio station worked and doing reports on more positive type things, I think was where my interest lay.

[Interviewer]: Take us through your memories of those four days in May 1970, and you can start wherever you like.

[Stephen Titchenal]: Having worked for the campus radio station, I also had friends there and everything. And so one of my friends had a 16mm camera. And he was actually planning to do some shooting of some of the events that were occurring after the, the incursion into Cambodia and everything. So he had asked me to go out with my tape recorder and just tape record sounds. So I was doing that to some extent. And I know, something was--there was something on Friday that I went to and I can't remember what it is anymore. I don't think it was related to the protest or anything, but it was some event that, it meant that I missed all my classes that day.

[Interviewer]: Okay.

[Stephen Titchenal]: So I don't remember any specific events on Friday other than I know I was at this particular--I think it was a school-sponsored event rather than a protest event. And then I went home for the weekend. And then when I heard about all the things that happened at Kent on Friday night, I ended up coming back to Kent on Saturday. So my first recollection of actual events transpiring up to May 4th was coming up back to my dorm room.

I took the campus limousine, not the campus, but the airport limousine which runs not too far from Berea. So it's a convenient place to get into Kent . But I remember carrying my luggage back to Stouffer as things were going on down by the ROTC building, which is right just down the street from there. And, as I remember it, as I was walking the path towards Stouffer there were a bunch of people moving away from the ROTC building. So evidently at that point in time people were being pushed away. And so I'm walking the opposite direction of the people that were coming. So that was my first remembrance of an experience with that, and I think it was either dusk or dark when I was coming in there.

[Interviewer]: And that was Saturday night?

[Stephen Titchenal]: Saturday night, yeah. So I don't remember doing it, but I obviously put my stuff in the room, and I came back out. I don't remember whether I had my tape recorder with me. But I do remember going down toward the ROTC building and watching what was going on there. And I remember it seemed like a long time that the fire was starting there. And I remember the firemen attempting to put it out. And I remember their hoses getting chopped and so on. Just wondering why there wasn't more protection for the firemen. But it seemed like it took a long time for that to happen. And I think I remember them leaving and letting the fire continue. Get out and basically burn the ROTC building down.

Don't have a lot of recollections anymore after all these years about too much of that. But those, those sort of individual scenes sort of, still come back to me. And then I think there was a lot of moving around of students over that time. And I remember walking around observing some of that stuff, but again I don't remember too many of the details of it anymore.

[Interviewer]: Do you remember where you were in proximity to the building? Were you up close or at a distance?

[Stephen Titchenal]: I think I was fairly close because I remember seeing the fire hoses and everything. Not necessarily five feet, but maybe, you know, 50 feet or 100 feet something like that, rather than thousands of feet away. So I don't think there was a huge number of students there were it would be impossible to see anything.

[Interviewer]: Right.

[Stephen Titchenal]: And I know there were a lot of other things that occurred that night, but I don't remember what was Saturday and what was Sunday any longer.

[Interviewer]: Do you remember--because the National Guard came in, I believe, later that night. Do you remember them coming in that night or the following morning, when you first saw them?

[Stephen Titchenal]: I don't remember the order of the events any longer, in terms of when I first remember seeing the National Guardsmen. But obviously I remember them being there. And some of the tapes, you'll actually hear me talking to some of the Guardsmen and so on.

[Interviewer]: Oh.

[Stephen Titchenal]: I think more of what I remember is Sunday night, but again I can't remember which was which any longer.

[Interviewer]: That's okay. Talk about Sunday night or whatever you'd like.

[Stephen Titchenal]: Yeah, I'm trying to remember enough to. They--you know there was a lot of confusion about what, what was going on. I guess there was a little--the time was such that it was--you didn't know what was, what was real and wasn't as far as rumors that were going on. And there was a lot of confusion in terms of what orders were being given to students. What you were supposed to do, and so on. Those kinds of things I sort of remember.

[Interviewer]: Well, talk a--

[Stephen Titchenal]: It was, it seemed like, you know, it was more of the protests were just frustration with what was going on in the country. And the polarization that seemed like you were either on one side or the other, there was no middle ground whatsoever. Sort of the sense of feelings that I remember from the time period. And I'm not going to--you're probably better off hearing my tapes in terms of the details rather than my trying to repeat back what I just heard, when I don't really remember it separately from the tape. So in terms of giving you too many details of, of Saturday and Sunday other than specifically remembering the ROTC building. I think that's going to be--

[Interviewer]: And, Stopher, if you were at Stopher Hall, there were other people that I've interviewed there remember helicopters that night--

[Stephen Titchenal]: Oh, yeah, there were definitely helicopters around.

[Interviewer]: Yeah.

[Stephen Titchenal]: And the tapes were actually, you'll hear a lot of that stuff.

[Interviewer]: Oh, really? Okay.

[Stephen Titchenal]: And there were groups of students that would be milling around, and deciding where to go next, and so on. And then I remem--there were some people with megaphones that were, would be trying to give some instruction to people.

[Interviewer]: What do you remember about May 4^th still, that Monday?

[Stephen Titchenal]: That morning I was out on The Commons. And the bells would be rung and people would be coming to show their support for getting the Guardsmen off the campus and everything. And I remember the Guardsmen being down at one end of The Commons and the students milling at the other end. And at some point, probably at around eleven or so, there was a decision made to move the Guardsmen and push the students off, out of The commons area. And so they moved up over, over the hill towards the practice football field and I followed them. And so I was actually standing with the Guardsmen at that time at the practice football field before they moved back up the hill where the shots were fired. So I actually had my tape recorder on and off at that time. I didn't necessarily have it on all the time, because there wasn't that much going on. But I remember the tear gas being shot, and shot at the students. And the students throwing it back at the Guardsmen. And I remember some rocks being thrown, but I wasn't hit and I wasn't- I wasn't afraid for my life at that point in time by what was going on there obviously. And then the Guard decided to move back up the hill, and I followed them. And I was, evidently, in the middle of the group of Guardsmen because I was over the top of the hill at the time the ones in the rear of the group turned and fired.

My eyesight is bad in daylight. I actually got a 4F deferment from the military because of that. So in terms of being able to see details of what was going on, it's not just my memory that, that was at a loss. I really had trouble seeing details out in the sun. So, I remember when the shots were fired that I immediately dove to the ground, and I did turn on my tape recorder at that point in time. So my particular tape recording does not include the first couple of shots.

[Interviewer]: Oh, okay.

[Stephen Titchenal]: And then I remember after that occurred the Guardsmen moved on back down to their main contention on The Commons. And I did walk around a little bit to see what was going on. I don't remember too much of it any longer to be quite honest with you.

[Interviewer]: Approximately how long did you follow them?

[Stephen Titchenal]: It was at least a half an hour. I don't remember the exact details but I do remember very vividly being down on the practice football field with them. And then I showed you that picture too.

[Interviewer]: Right. And were any of them--were they aware of your presence there? Did they say anything to you. or--?

[Stephen Titchenal]: I don't remember anybody saying anything to me.

[Interviewer]: Okay.

[Stephen Titchenal]: When I was listening to the tapes I did hear myself, not necessarily at that point in time, but other times talking to Guardsmen and getting permission to do things. So I have no idea whether I got permission to be there and I don't remember it or what. But, I don’t remember there being any issue with my being where I was either. And whether I introduced myself as being from WKSU, or I really don't remember any longer. But I, there was so many things going on at various times, I don't know that you'd always be able to introduce yourself every time either.

[Interviewer]: Right. Not conducive to formal introductions, at a point.

[Stephen Titchenal]: Mm-hm.

[Interviewer]: Well, I was going to ask, what made you decide to follow them? Was it as a reporter? Or your own, just your own personal interest?

[Stephen Titchenal]: I think it was a little of both.

[Interviewer]: Because you mention that it was hard for people that weekend to find a middle ground. You said that, you know, you're either--

[Stephen Titchenal]: Yeah. I don't know that it was just that weekend. That was more of a general thing from the time period rather than specifically that weekend.

[Interviewer]: Right.

[Stephen Titchenal]: But it certainly, yeah, I can remember all kinds of rumors going around. And again, not necessarily just that weekend, but that time period. Around things that would be bombed or that kind of stuff. And all kinds of stories about how horrible the government is. Some of which turned out to be true. Um, but it was a time when you really didn't know what was real and what wasn't. And when we talk about some of the things that occurred after that, I think that's when I really notice the polarity of people after the events of May 4^th.

And, actually, the time period that morning, or it would be then afternoon after May 4^th I think was actually almost more scary than the shooting. Because I think it came very close to additional casualties occurring because students were very upset, obviously, by what had happened.  And the Guardsmen seemed to be very intent on just clearing everybody out. And I can remember some of the impassioned speeches by a couple the professors and so on to try and get kids to settle down and, and move out. So I guess we have to give them a lot of credit for the fact that nothing more happened. Because it, there wasn't a sense that the Guardsmen were trying to compromise or anything.

[Interviewer]: Right. Glenn Frank is often cited as one of those faculty members you mentioned.

[Stephen Titchenal]: And I think some of those are on my tape too, but you probably already have some of that.

[Interviewer]: We're happy to have more, obviously. So talk about some of the things that happened afterwards. You mentioned your audio recordings. Do you want to tell the story about that?

[Stephen Titchenal]: Well, what was real interesting was was my roommate, Jim Sima, was on Student Council. [Cell phone rings.]

Whoops. Let me turn it off. I'll get it later.

[Interviewer]: [laughs]

[Stephen Titchenal]: Actually, it's my son calling. I was asking if he whether he knew anybody that had reel-to-reel.

[Interviewer]: Oh, okay.

[Stephen Titchenal]: Clarice. But I'll talk to him later.

[Interviewer]: [laughs] Uh-huh.

[Stephen Titchenal]: Anyway, so he happened to meet up with a couple of aides from Robert Taft, who was running for the Republican nomination for the U.S. Senate the next day on Tuesday. And when they had heard about the shootings at Kent they had actually hired a helicopter flown to the golf course at Kent . And then tried to find some students to come back and talk to Taft. So they found my roommate with his student council connections. And my roommate then invited me to come along too.

I don't remember whether anybody else besides the two of us went. But we ended up flying in a helicopter back to Cleveland that evening. And talking to Robert Taft. And the aides really wanted him to make it a campaign issue the night before, because Rhodes was his opponent in the race. So it was very significant because, I didn't really talk about it, but Rhodes was came in and was talking about how horrible the students were and everything, and making it a big campaign issue on Sunday. So we talked to Taft. And he decided not to do anything so close to the primary. To make any kind of a new issue at that point in time. But we then did get on to The Pete Franklin Show, which was a nighttime talk show that was on. I brought a tape and we'll see what was on that, if we can get a tape recorder.

Then the next day the aides to Robert Taft told us that they were actually aides to Mayor Lindsay in New York City, and that they had come to to help Robert Taft with his election. And they invited us to come to New York City and meet Mayor Lindsay. So, I don't remember exactly how many days later it was, but, but we got plane tickets. Or at least I did, I don't- can't remember, I don't think Jim came with us. Um, so I'm not remember who might have come along with me, but I did go to New York City. I remember being put up in a loft somewhere. It was a nice place, but there were people around it that were helpful. And I remember going to a few protest rallies and speaking. That's where I remember just- just observing the polarity. That's part of what I think I talked about, was some how we got to find a way to talk to each other and come together rather than see each other as evil sides. I remember saying something along those lines one of the times I spoke. Then I remember that Mayor Lindsay ordered the flags to be flown at half-mast. And there was a big issue down on Wall Street where some construction workers wanted the flag to be at full-mast and there was a confrontation. That really had an impact in New York because of the--but I remember being around in that area when that occurred.

I also remember being on WNYC New York. It was a public television station at the time that was run by the city. And Mayor Lindsay had a weekly news program. I remember being interviewed on that program. I don't remember much of what I said any longer, but I do remember being on that program. It would be an interesting thing to see if I could try and locate. I'm going to try and make a contact with the New York television station.

[Interviewer]: Well, it sounds like a lot of things snowballed just from--

[Stephen Titchenal]: Yeah.

[Interviewer]: --the fact that your roommate was on the Student Council, they contacted him.

[Stephen Titchenal]: Yeah. So, unfortunately, I just don't remember a lot any more of details. Just sort of little vague recollections of a few things that occurred there. I was probably there about a week and came back. Kent State attempted to finish their courses off campus, so I do remember off-campus to meet with different professors and everything to finish up courses. I remember coming on to campus to meet with the FBI agents some time then, later in May. Then I came back to Kent during the summer. Summer session. [coughs] Excuse me.

[Interviewer]: It's okay.

[Stephen Titchenal]: And don't remember too much about that other than going to classes. I do remember, again it's very hazy, in terms of how long afterwards but testifying the Portage County Grand Jury. I remember testifying there. And I remember, just the perception that you know--listening to my tapes and, "One, two, three, four, we don't want this fucking war." Almost felt like, for some people, that's enough justification to shoot somebody right there. And that was part of what the polarization was all about, was just the idea that, you know, you're either on one side or the other. It was a scary time with all of that.

[Interviewer]: Did you find that was the case with the Grand Jury? What you just talked about, that they were on kind of one extreme? Based on the questions that they asked you or--

[Stephen Titchenal]: Yeah.

[Interviewer]: Yeah.

[Stephen Titchenal]: Yeah, I don't remember the reason. I don't remember exactly why I felt that way any longer. But I just got the sense that that was not something that people wanted. Felt was appropriate at all.

[Interviewer]: Right, right.

[Stephen Titchenal]: And that it justified whatever you needed to do to stop kids that were behaving that way.

Wish I remembered more. It's sort of strange to go back after all these years.

[Interviewer]: Yeah. Could you talk about the audio recordings and the FBI? And did I understand that they took the recordings?

[Stephen Titchenal]: Yeah, when I met with them; it was probably when I met with them on campus later in May. They asked me for the originals and made copies of the tape recordings. So the tape recordings I'm donating are copies that were made by the FBI in May of that year.

[Interviewer]: So they let you keep--or they took--you said they took the originals and gave you the copies?

[Stephen Titchenal]: Mm-hm. Yeah.

[Interviewer]: And that was immediately that they gave you the copies?

[Stephen Titchenal]: I think it was immediately, but I don't remember absolutely for sure.

[Interviewer]: Alright. Okay.

[Stephen Titchenal]: I'm trying to remember what, there was something I was thinking of, and I can't remember it now.

[Interviewer]: You had mentioned that you had been interviewed also by the FBI. Do you remember the kinds of questions that they asked you?

[Stephen Titchenal]: Well, they asked me to narrate the tape recording.

[Interviewer]: Oh, they did?

[Stephen Titchenal]: And actually if you listen--I actually have the copy of the tape where I actually remembered and described where I was, what I was doing during the different parts of the tape recording. So in terms of much better memory than my current memory of some of the details of the events that occurred before the shootings on May 4^th. That occurred and wherever they were stationed on the campus.

[Interviewer]: Did you take any classes that summer? How did your coursework end up?

[Stephen Titchenal]: I don't remember the specific classes I took, but I did fine in school. I did choose to not go back in the fall.

[Interviewer]: You didn't go back?

[Stephen Titchenal]: I went during the summer. But then I took nine months off. I was actually a substitute teacher and worked in the Berea schools for nine months. Then I went back to Kent and finished up. So I ended up graduating almost the same time I would have if I hadn't, because I ended up going to a couple summer sessions.

[Interviewer]: Oh, okay.

[Stephen Titchenal]: I also took extra classes and everything. So I think one quarter I actually took 40 credits at one quarter to get through. I think I had one elective out of my entire degree. But I got a degree in Library Science, or they call it Media Specialist for K-12, and Elementary Teacher, and Math on a secondary level. So I ended up getting a lot of stuff out of Kent . But I enjoyed my time at Kent. Like I think I said earlier, I got involved in a quite a few outside activities, which I think were as valuable as some of the classes that I took.

[Interviewer]: Were you asked to testify at any of the other trials that came up? Krause versus Rhodes, or anything like that?

[Stephen Titchenal]: No, I don't remember being at any of the civil trials.

[Interviewer]: And you had mentioned--did I hear you correctly before we started this, that you had come back to some of the commemorations?

[Stephen Titchenal]: Yeah. Not very many, but I did come back to the 25^th.

[Interviewer]: What was that like?

[Stephen Titchenal]: That was interesting. Peter, Paul, and Mary were there. It was a nice day. It's different to come back after you've been away for a while.

[Interviewer]: Sure.

[Stephen Titchenal]: And sort of begin to re-remember some of the things.

[Interviewer]: Are there any other thoughts you'd like to share?

[Stephen Titchenal]: I guess just my worry that you know we're--I haven't sensed the polarization, the total polarization that I sensed in the 1970's today. But I guess I always worry that we move back toward being a more of a polarized nation rather than trying to work together and find out what each other is concerned about and try to solve problems rather than painting people as evil. So I just would hope that we remember the past when we deal with the present.

[Interviewer]: And you feel that is the important significance of May 4? The event?

[Stephen Titchenal]: I believe that was part of the culmination of this polarization. Yes.

[Interviewer]: Well, Stephen, thank you very much for meeting with me.

[Stephen Titchenal]: Thank you.