Richard Karl Watkins, Oral History

Recorded: May 3, 2000
Interviewed by Betsy Zajko
Transcribed by Rhonda Rinehart

Note: This transcript includes geo-references to locations that are discussed in the oral history. Geographical names linked in the transcript will open in a new window or tab that takes you to that location information and map in the Mapping May 4 project. To request a transcript without geo-reference links included, please contact Kent State University Special Collections & Archives.

[Interviewer]: This is Betsy Zajko on May 3rd, 2000. It's 1:30 in the afternoon, and I'm with --

[Richard Karl Watkins]: I'm Richard Karl Watkins from Big Stone City, South Dakota. Graduate 1973 of Kent State.

[Interviewer]: Tell me your story.

[Richard Karl Watkins]: I came to Kent State from rural Ohio -- northwestern Ohio -- west of Toledo -- Wauseon. I was in the Air Force ROTC as a freshman in the fall of '68 and stayed in that until March of 1970, I dropped out. I lived in Dunbar Hall.

On May 2nd, I heard that the ROTC building was going to be burned down, and went around and looked, and sure enough it was. But I didn't stay there very long 'cause I was a little bit surprised that people I knew who were more conservative than me were chanting, "Burn it down!" and I thought that was really strange. I didn't want to be a part of that, so I left. I went back to Prentice and watched the National Guard chase people around campus, and not do a very good job of it. To me it seemed they lacked training to do what they felt they were needing to do.

On May 4th in the morning I went to my geology class, and we talked about the events of the weekend rather than geology. And I think that was probably a wise move on the part of the professor.

Probably just before noon, I was in Dunbar watching television but there was a lot of interference on the television. I figured it was National Guard radios that did that, but I don't know for sure. After a while I went down to the study lounge because people said, "They're tear-gassing people again! They've come over the hill!" I was in the third floor study lounge in Dunbar from just a little bit after noon until I decided it was time to leave campus. I watched the Guard chase people over the hill -- I hadn't gone out 'cause I had heard the night before they'd bayonetted people. I was upset the Guard were on campus, but not enought to risk being bayonetted -- and watched them throw tear gas canisters and rocks back and forth at some distance from the practice field to the Prentice parking lot. And then it looked like it was over, and I wondered how long I was gonna stick around watching. And I watched the Guardsmen go up the hill and was surprised to see them turn, and then I heard pops, and I thought "What a terrible time to set off a string of firecrackers,"--'cause that's what it sounded like -- until I noticed there were puffs coming up from the parking lot, and then I saw breaking glass in Prentice parking lot.

There was a group of us in the study lounge, and somebody said, "They're shooting!" and someone else said, "No they're not!" But quickly we figured out they were. We stood there watching the whole time, and then watched as people started treating the people who had been injured.

I remember somebody close by had a facial or a neck wound, and so it bled really bad. I remember looking at that for -- it probably wasn't long, but it was one of the scenes I remember most greatly. There was a basketball player who lived on our floor -- a freshman -- who came in shortly after the shootings, and if anybody ever looked green, he did. And there was a guy from my hometown, and I said, "It looks like a good time to get outta here," and he had a car behind Dunbar, and we grabbed a few things. I happened to call my father and said, "There's been people shot here at Kent. I'm OK, we're gettin' outta town. And I'm on my way home." And on our way out of Kent, we passed a whole bunch of Ohio Highway Patrol cars coming into town at pretty good speed. One other thing I remember about the Highway Patrol was on Sunday night there was some disbturbance, too, and I remember seeing Highway Patrolmen -- probably four or five of them -- control a large crowd. So to me, it seemed obvious that they'd had some ground control training -- did a good job.

I was fine on my way home until half way across northern Ohio, I decided -- got to the point where the adrenalin was probably wearing off, and I said, "I feel sick," 'cause I kept seeing the guy who was bloody on the neck and face. And so we stopped, and I got some 7-Up or something and just rested for a while. And then got home and I remember watching the news -- I remember hearing the news on the radio, and the first reports we heard were that two National Guardsmen had been killed, and a student. And we didn't think that was probably correct. And then on the news, I believe -- the first television news I watched -- said four had been killed and a number injured -- I don't think they gave an accurate number on that evening. It was sort of a blur, but I remember it was just good to see family and be home.

The following day, my family all went to work or to school -- I had younger brothers and sisters -- and I was home alone, and I remember late in the morning wondering if I was gonna go crazy 'cause I saw the person that had blood all over their neck and face. After a little bit of that, trying to get that out of my mind, I figured I needed to do something to get that out of my mind, and I don't remember what I did, I just remember I started doing some stuff around the house. And it felt really good when my brothers and sisters came home from school there was somebody there. 'Cause I think the stuff of television was just normal stuff, and it was like if I tried to watch it, I couldn't pay attention. But with people there, I could talk with them. And I got through that day and felt, "I didn't go crazy today." And that was good.

The next day -- that evening -- I saw Doug Wrentmore on TV. He had friends on my floor.

[Interviewer]: This is the 5th?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah, on Tuesday evening the 5th, I believe Doug was on TV, and he had friends on my floor in Dunbar, and I said, "That's Doug!" They were interviewing him in a hospital room. He'd been shot in the knee. I'd heard one of the people who was killed was Allison. I was in the class with Alison, but I didn't know her last name. I remember we argued sometimes, we agreed sometimes, but we were a couple of the more vocal people in the political science class I was in. The first pictures I saw of her didn't look like the Alison Krause that I knew from class, but I wondered. . . The first ones were somewhat comforting 'cause they didn't look like her, and I figured, "Ah, that's not her." And then the Wednesday, I wanted to know more about who was injured, and I had only heard a few things so I went to the local radio station to see if they had an AP wire that I could just read the names off there to see if I recognized any names. And I think I did recognize Tom Grace's name. I didn't know -- I mean, I met Tom. I had argued with Tom a few times, and so I knew who he was. But it didn't really tell me what I wanted to know. I think it was Life magazine the following week that had a picture of Allison Krause, and that was the Allison I knew from class. [Long pause]. Ah, it was quite a discovery. [Long pause].

I think it was probably that week we got letters from the university saying that they had closed the school for the remainder of the quarter and we could finish our classes. Then we got letters from faculty and I remember I was in a political theory class with Peter Crossland -- that was the one Allison was in. So that was probably the most memorable letter.

[Interviewer]: What was the letter?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Just saying -- [audibly upset] it was a letter from all -- we got letters from all faculty saying this is how you're doing in the class and what do you want to do, except Allison was in that class. There were probably some people that didn't know that, so he had to address that. It was hard to get that letter.

[Interviewer]: Do you remember about it?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Just him expressing his sorrow at her death, and that it was gonna be hard for him to finish the quarter.

Ah, this is sorta back -- one of the things in Dunbar --

[Interviewer]: What day?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: OK, back to May 4th. After the shootings a couple of guys got in an argument over whether the Guard should have shot or not. And I remember there were probably three or four of us that broke up the fight. It really didn't get physical, but it was about at that point. I don't know what that popped into my head, except I was just remembering Allison and the people who were shot. Remembering that different people had different views, even that were there and saw the event.

So now, going back to the week after and getting the letters from faculty saying that the quarter was over and giving us opportunities. I think I may have just takent the grade I had been getting so far in one of my classes -- I don't remember for sure -- and then we could finish the rest of them. I remember -- in fact, I think that's what I did in political theory. No, I remember reading some books -- so I read and finished most of my classes. I may have taken whatever I was getting in some class.

And then went to the University of Toledo a few weeks later. Kent sent out some people -- the administration, the university -- met with -- there were probably 30 of us -- students from northwestern Ohio who met at the University of Toledo. I believe Dennis Cary was one of the people who came initially; and maybe every time, maybe several times later. I almost think it was weekly for a while, but it was certainly more than once a month. People needed to talk about their experiences after -- of the whole weekend, the 1st through the 4th and following. 'Cause another big part I remember was -- especially later in May -- was people who knew I went to Kent who had seen things on television felt like they needed to tell me what had happened, and generally didn't ask me if I was there and saw anything or anything. They just told me 'cause they'd seen it on television. I remember just listening at that point. In fact, I was at a family reunion where two relatives who had seen things, that had different points of view, argued over what had happened in my presence. And only occasionally would they ask me anything. It was pretty much a discussion or argument between then, and I was on the sidelines.

But I was at another family reunion at which -- after the shootings at Kent, there was some sympathy kind of demonstration at Ohio State -- and I had a relative who thought I went to Ohio State, who was upset with the students at Ohio State, that had done something. Maybe they took down the American flag or something, I can't remember. But she thought that I went to Ohio State, and so was just pointing her finger and yelling at me, until my brother came up and corrected her impression. I don't go to Ohio State, I go to Kent! [Laughs]. And it was like a person exploded almost, 'cause that made it worse. And she said, "Oh, if I had a machine gun, I'd have shot 'em all!" So a lot of my memories of meeting people -- telling me things -- were just sitting there not saying anything, but just listening to them vent their anger or express their opinion about what happened. So I think fairly quickly I got into a habit of not saying anything about what happened. 'Cause I didn't want the grief. It was nice to go home to family, 'cause my family was pretty supportive. And when I went to work, the people that I worked with might ask me a question or two, but didn't feel a big need to tell me. So that was good.

There was something else about the summer . . . Oh, I remember applying for a job, and when I was asking for the application, they asked me if I was applying for a summer job, and I said 'Yes.' And are you a college student? "Yes." Where do you go to school? "Kent State." Are you a Communist? [Laughs]. And I said, "No." And I laughed. Except the woman was not laughing. She was serious. I didn't get hired there. They did give me an application. I filled it out, but I didn't think my chances were too great at that point, and I didn't get a job there. But that was OK with me at that point anyway. And the rest of the summer . . .

Jumping back to May 4th. Around noon, or shortly after noon, I had a former roommate who had a class. He was an architecture major; he had a class in Taylor Hall. Probably, maybe within ten minutes before the shootings, he left Dunbar to go to Taylor Hall, so he was one of the people I was concerned about. He was just outside of Taylor Hall watching things, but I remember he'd walked out there - he walked out of Taylor just like he was going to class - 'cause he was going to class. But there were a lot of people - I knew a lot of people by sight; people who lived in the dorm; didn't necessarily know their name, but ...

When we came back to school in the fall of '70, it was like people were just glad to see each other; they were alive and they were there. I didn't live in Dunbar that year, but I went to Dunbar, because people I knew would be there, and other people like me who had moved off campus also came back to Dunbar to see each other. A number of nights I remember sitting up in people's dorm rooms just talkin' about their summers ... and I remember hearing from at least one student that their parents said, "They shoulda shot 'em all," and they lived in Dunbar. People just needed to get together and talk; and Dunbar, it was all men, they shook hands. It's made me wonder, 'cause I just wrote a thing about it and remembered that. I expect women in Prentice may have hugged, just to see each other back and alive. I don't know, I've never talked to anybody from Prentice that was there both spring and fall of '70 to find out if that happened, but I'd be curious to find out.

[Interviewer]: You'd certainly want to be held after an experience like that.

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah. Yeah. One other thing I remember from the fall of '70, was just all the security that was around campus. We had new ID cards and had to show them. I never had to show mine until a couple weeks before school was out in the spring of '71, I was walking across campus and got stopped and had to show my ID. And before May 4th of '71security, again, was pretty tight. On a Saturday morning in late April I went to the Union to buy some laundry detergent in the book store, and was walking back across campus through Lilac Lane with this sack of detergent, and there were two university police officers walking down the sidewalk, and I thought, "What if they thought I had a bomb or something in here," and at a distance -- about twice the normal distance at which you'd say "hi" -- one of the university police officers said -- or waved -- and I waved [laughs] and said, "hi." They didn't ask to see my detergent, and I got my clothes washed. But I remember -- it was funny -- but people were, were -- nervous at that point.

After I graduated from Kent, I went to Seminary; and I'm a United Methodist pastor in South Dakota. My first interview with people from West Ohio Conference of the United Methodist Church -- the pastor I met with was a pastor of one of the generals who had been here at Kent. We didn't talk about that a whole lot, but I remembered feeling uncomfortable, and ... I also expressed interest in wanting to be a campus minister, and he was sort of discouraging about that. So my first interview was negative, and a friend of mine said, "Why don't you talk to Iowa?" I talked to Iowa the next week, and was -- when I graduated from Seminary, I was a pastor in Iowa for six years. Then I was a campus minister in Dakota for twelve, and I'm still out West. So... I mean it's not the only reason I moved out of Ohio, but I think it did -- I didn't want to stay here. And it's more comfortable for me to be in South Dakota or Iowa. People ask me instead of telling me -- 'cause even when I was in Seminary, people would tell me what happened. And out West, people have just asked me. Some expressing surprise when they find out, yeah, I was there. But almost always respectful. No matter what their political viewpoint is, they seem pretty respectful out West; more so than what I've felt in Ohio, so...

[Interviewer]: How often have you come back?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: I was here for the twentieth anniversary, and when I was in Seminary I came back. So that would have got me through, let's see, 1976. I don't remember coming back between 1976 and 1990. I probably didn't, because I was busy in Iowa or South Dakota. But in 1990 I was here, and so I'm here this year, so...

[Interviewer]: I just asked because I think proximity does make a difference when we tell our stories, and feel our stories.

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah. I can't think of anything else to say unless you have a question.

[Interviewer]: No. No I don't. I just ... Do you think that what happened in your experience here shaped the direction you have taken in your life? Your work? Your self?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: This probably made me more patient and open at times to people I've disagreed with more. And it's probably helped me work with people who society sees as outsiders a bit more. I always keep gettin' on committees in the church that deal with women's issues and Native American issues in the Dakotas and I chair our Conference, Religion, and Race committee. And I think that's probably a big part of that, 'cause those have been people on the outside, and I got a real strong sense of being on the outside from my Kent experience. I mean, when everybody tells me what happened, and they don't ask me, I feel on the outside, so...

[Interviewer]: What are the right questions to ask somebody? What questions would you want people to ask you?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Questions about what happened. I mean if they ask me, "What's your opinion of what happened?" that's okay. I guess I'm pretty comfortable with open questions. It's when they have a -- I guess the wrong questions would be questions that are -- they've already decided part of the answer and just want me to add a little bit more. And that can be either from liberal or conservative folks. If they've pretty much decided what happened, their questions really don't sound like questions. They sound like statements with maybe just a little bit of a part of question. Give me something to bolster my opinion.

[Interviewer]: So you wrote a ten page document on it.

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah. I guess it's only nine [laughs].

[Interviewer]: When did you write that?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Just a few weeks ago. My daughter -- I have a high school senior who's gonna come to Kent in the fall. I have a daughter who's a sophomore here now. My daughter that's a senior in high school said she'd decided -- she had a paper for English she had to pick a topic for -- she went a couple weeks talking about vaious things -- and then she told me she'd decided what she wanted to write on, and it was the shootings at Kent State, which I don't think she had mentioned before -- just when she decided and asked if I would help her. And I said, "sure," and I looked at web sites. I was a student at Kent. I saw the shootings, and I had to write a paper and they interviewed me and one supervisor said, "It's interesting -- you said you watched the shootings at Kent State in one sentence. You didn't say anything else." He said, "What's goin' on there?" I said, "I don't know." He said, "Well, maybe you'd better check that out." And so my daughter asks me this spring if I'd help her, and I was looking at web sites and it just ... Oh, somebody had a site that included some personal things of Bill Schroeder and the other three, but I remember one of the things was a letter to Bill Schroeder's mother about he was a communist and stuff like this. Very negative. And it just brought back of the negative stuff of the summer of '70. And the shootings themselves.

And so, then I went to see a therapist that's a friend of mine, and I said, "I think there's somethin' here, 'cause I'm havin' difficulty dealin' with this." And he said, "Well, you probably have somethin' there." And so that's how I started writing the paper. I can write about a page at a time, and then I have to take a break. I'd get misty a bit, but if I got away from it, I was okay. I'd just do what else I had to do. But I'd be drawn back to writin' and... Probably the most difficult parts were the day of the shooting and the immediate aftermath. That wasn't all the difficult part, but that was probably the most difficult part.

[Interviewer]: The man that you saw...

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah. Seeing -- I'm not sure who it was. I've read -- at times I've thought it was Robbie Stamps who was shot in the face, but I think he was further away from Dunbar. I actually think it was somebody else who was shot in the neck. And I've forgotton the name, but it was very bloody. And that was... that was -- that's been helpful in my ministry in that I didn't go crazy. And I've had a couple other experiences where I've helped people that have had traumatic experiences -- one while I was a campus minister. I had a student that came back who had come upon an accident and had helped and was quite shook up and I told him about my experience, and I said, "I didn't go crazy, and you're not gonna go crazy either." And he appreciated that. He -- later he told me he appreciated that. It wasn't a thing that he thought to tell me right then, but... So that's happened... And now I forget what I was talkin' about--

[Interviewer]: You were talking about going back and writing and the how the hardest part was the day, so... And going back to that space -- psychological space...

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah, yeah, that was just the most difficult part of writing it and what I wrote 'cause it's at the heart of it. I don't think I got all my grief resolved yet, but...

[Interviewer]: It takes years.

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah. I think it's just really been in this past five months that I've figured out I still have some grief that I've really not dealt with much.

[Interviewer]: It's so easy to stop -- and go on -- I think we're made up to do that in order to survive, and then deal with it when we can, maybe.

[Richard Karl Watkins]: The strange thing is -- I've seen it in other people and told them about it, and not seen it in myself -- and so that was, that was powerful for me to see in me. So that's probably part of the reason I'm here. 'Cause I figured this is part of that --

[Interviewer]: --Part of the process...

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah, for me.

[Interviewer]: Definitely. Telling's telling the story to a witness. You're not just talkin' to one person; this is going in the archives.

[Richard Karl Watkins]: I think the thing is is just to tell people in general is a bit exhibitionist. But I need to tell people that it's okay to tell. Um, 'cause I need to tell. It's like I told my wife, but probably before we were married, and haven't said much about it to her since. And I've been married 23 years this summer, so... So I haven't talked to many people probably for 23 years, 'cause... She's probably the last person I talked to pretty seriously about it.

[Interviewer]: People don't ask.

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's good living in the Dakotas, but people are generally surprised when they find out that I went to Kent State. And their next [question], "Were you -- you're about that age -- were you there at the time of the shootings?" And another friend -- I just happened to think of this -- in February started askin' me questions, and I noticed then it was takin' me some energy to tell about it. And that was a bit of a surprise to me, even then. And another pastor, she's known me for 15 years, and she said, "I never knew that about you." So, yeah, I don't think to go up and tell anybody, "I went to Kent State and I gotta tell ya my story," but it's easier to do that here.

[Interviewer]: And yet there's a need to tell it... And your children are asking now, too; they need to know.

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah. And I gave a copy of the paper I wrote -- to get it off me and to help my daughter -- I gave a copy to all of my three daughters -- gave 'em to all of my daughters. Gave my wife a copy. Gave my brothers and sisters and parents a copy. Just so they could see -- I did this; I needed to do this. And I've heard affirmation back from my brothers and sisters and parents, so that's really been -- and daughters -- and wife. I think my wife's waitin' for a time when she's got time to read it and can -- and we got time to be together [laughs].

[Interviewer]: Your children see it as part of their story, too.Who their dad is as a result of the experience.

[Richard Karl Watkins]: My oldest daughter and my wife talked about it, and I'm tryin' to remember what my wife said... It was a thing of, "It was good to see this part of Dad."

[Interviewer]: is there anything else?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: I can't think of anything else.

[Interviewer]: Well, I can't wait to read your paper.

[Richard Karl Watkins]: OK. [Laughs].

[Interviewer]: I don't mean it like that. You know what I mean, don't you.

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah. Yeah, I do.

[Interviewer]: OK. I look forward to [technical difficulty]. --your freshman year.

[Richard Karl Watkins]: My freshman year. I was an engineer at WKSU. Actually, I operated the board 'cause they had other engineers there, but I started -- I think it was Dr. Weiser -- and I remember there was the booth with the window and he had his classroom, and when I pointed my finger at him, the class started. So, it was like, once a week I started this class. So that was a fun thing.

[Interviewer]: It was recorded?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah. It was -- it was a live broadcast.

[Interviewer]: The class was a live --

[Richard Karl Watkins]: The class was a live broadcast. And it started, like, on the hour. And so when I pointed my finger, he started talkin'.

[Interviewer]: Hand of God.

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah. We'd have cassettes that we'd play, and I remember on one of my shifts, we had big tapes -- big reel-to-reel tapes of recorded talk shows or music -- there was a variety of stuff that I did and... But the class was the thing I remember 'cause I just moved my finger down and the class started. It was live.

[Interviewer]: What class was it?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: I think it was Intro to Broadcasting; and it was in the Music and Speech building. That's about all I remember.

[Interviewer]: Do you know this is WKSU's 50th anniversary?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Uh huh. Well, I'm a member of South Dakota Public Broadcasting AND Minnesota Public Radio, 'cause I live on the state line, and TV is South Dakota and radio is Minnesota Public Radio -- sounds like NPR, but it's MPR.

[Interviewer]: That's cool. WKSU is actually trying to do archives of people who used to work there , that's why it's taping. I didn't want to tell you before hand that I worked for WKSU. But I didn't want to let that affect your story, because I'm not here for that purpose. I'm here for my own interest in storytelling and trauma. I do a lot of work in that area personally.

[Richard Karl Watkins]: So what's your background? I mean...

[Interviewer]: My background? Um...

[Taped stopped].

 

 

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