Richard Karl Watkins, Oral History

Recorded: 1990
Transcribed by Amanda Remster

Note: This transcript includes geo-references to locations that are discussed in the oral history. Geographical names linked in the transcript will open in a new window or tab that takes you to that location information and map in the Mapping May 4 project. To request a transcript without geo-reference links included, please contact Kent State University Special Collections & Archives.

[Richard Karl Watkins]: My name is Karl Watkins. I'm a 1973 graduate, Kent State University. I entered the university in fall of 1968, grew up in small community in western Ohio, graduated from Wauseon High School and came to Kent. My background is small town. I was a part of Air Force ROTC for my first five quarters at the university. I dropped out winter quarter of 1970, so I was not in ROTC spring quarter of 1970.

I lived in Dunbar Hall at spring of 1970, and I'd been out on Saturday night and saw the crowd that watched the burning of the one ROTC building and saw things that evening--smelled tear-gas for the first time in my life that evening. And I was curious about what was going on. I heard that people were bayoneted on Sunday night so I didn't feel a strong compulsion to go to the rally on Monday, though I met many people who did in my classes on Monday morning. Shortly before noon, things were happening enough that my curiosity was raised and I went to the study lounge in Dunbar Hall on the third floor where there was probably ten to fifteen other students watching the Guard chase people over the hill and come and take a position on the practice field across from Prentice. In fact, while they were on the practice field, to me seemed like--up to the time of the shooting--that that was the most intense part of the confrontation. When the Guard went back over the hill it seemed like things were quieting down. In fact I think some people even left the study lounge.

I remember watching the Guard get up close to the Pagoda, and I remember seeing people turn. I didn't think they were shots at first. I thought, What a stupid time to have firecrackers going off. Except then, I noticed people ducking and very quickly, seeing some puffs come up from the pavement, figured out that those were real bullets coming from the guns. A friend of mine from my hometown was right next to me as we watched out the study hall--study lounge--window. I turned to him and said, "This looks like a good time to leave," and he agreed and we got a few things and went to his car in the Music and Speech parking lot and took off. And just as we were leaving Kent heading for the turnpike, passed a number of highway patrol cars coming into town.

Personally, I had known three of the people who were shot. Allison Krause was in political science class with me spring quarter. Doug Wrentmore had a friend--or some friends--from his hometown I believe on my floor in Dunbar Hall, and so I'd seen him around and done some things with him a few times. And Tom Grace, I probably argued with a few times, but knew him. So I knew those three students.

The one interesting thing to me--well, lots of interesting things to me--but the surprising thing to me in the summer was meeting people who had watched events on TV or read about it in the newspaper who found out I was from Kent State and then came and then came and told me what had happened. Which very often didn't sound like what I had seen when people told me what had happened. And generally, I figured that people's ideas of what happened, who were not from--or who had not seen things happen--depended on where they were ideologically or politically. I remember at a reunion a relative was really angry with me because she thought I went to Ohio State, and there'd been some disturbances at Ohio State. And I just listened. And then my helpful brother came up and said, "Oh, he doesn't go to Ohio State. He goes to Kent State." At which point she said, "Oh, I wish I would have shot them--if I'd been there I would have shot them all." And again, I just listened because it was ridiculous to me but not really worth the argument.

I finished my classes from spring quarter by mail, which was a different experience. I think probably I remember sending in German papers. But besides getting class materials from professors, it was good to get letters from them. And even though they were mimeographed off or copied off, I still felt some contact with my instructors that was in a way personal. Especially from Peter Crossland in political science in whose class Allison and I were both a part of. Finishing classes by mail was helpful not only for finishing the class work, but I think having communication with some other people who knew something about what I was going through, especially out in western Ohio. In the summer I traveled to the University of Toledo--I think on a weekly basis--to meet with other Kent State students from the area to find out what was going on. I think the university sent some people out to tell us about what was going on and also to hear what our concerns were. In western Ohio often I felt fairly alone, so it was good to have those other Kent students meeting at the University of Toledo.

[Interviewer]: And you felt that changed you more? That changed you more in any way or--

[Richard Karl Watkins]: I think the way I felt changed. I'm now a United Methodist minister, and I had planned on going into ministry before the shootings, but it was intriguing to me to hear people's--I think the thing that changed me more than watching the actual shootings was hearing people's reactions and how colored they were by what their preconceived ideas were. People who would tell me what happened generally were coming from where they were politically, and just convinced me that human beings are, in theological terms, sinful or at least it's hard for us to admit that we're wrong as human beings. That was one of the most interesting things to me. For a long time, I remember feeling bitter towards authorities in general. I think I've gotten over that pretty much.

[Interviewer]: Were you that way before then?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: No. I think I was very accepting of authority before that.

[Interviewer]: You would not consider yourself allied with any visible group on campus pretty much?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: No. In fact, I knew Tom Grace and had argued with him over political things, probably the Vietnam War. I'm sure I argued with Tom over the Vietnam War. But I don't think I was a part of any group, just more a regular student listening to various voices.

[Interviewer]: What about the—you were—I don’t want to [unintelligible]

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Well, one other thing I remember was I applied for a summer job at a canning factory in Napoleon and I filled out the form and the woman read where it said I was going to Kent State and she goes, "Are you a Communist?" and I thought, No. [laughs] To me it was an absurd question but she was asking me very seriously, and to me that was bizarre. But when I got back to school that fall I found out a whole lot of people were asked if they were Communists. And these were just guys in the dorm, fairly--some of them pretty conservative, some not--but I think we all thought it was somewhat bizarre to be asked if we were Communists. That seemed strange.

I'm a Methodist minister. I'm part of the South Dakota Annual Conference and in June my wife and I were moved back to South Dakota. There's probably a lot of reasons for going out west, but I know when I graduated from seminary in 1976, I was pretty sure at that point I wanted to get away from Ohio, in terms of--I felt I had to be defensive a lot of times for going to Kent State, or had to explain a whole lot of things, or received a lot of anger from people that I just didn't want to deal with at that point. So at that point I went to Iowa and from there I went to South Dakota. I like being out west because I don't have to fight all those battles all the time.

[Interviewer]: Did you encounter any image--strong images of Kent State or attitudes about Kent State?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: It's interesting. I think out west, I think people are much more open to listen to what I have to say. The thing I've experienced in Ohio, or at least I did within the six years of the shootings was still a lot of people had agendas or things they had to tell me about what happened. And I generally was quiet and listened at those times because to me it was bizarre. Because here I am, a witness to something that occurred, and yet other people want to tell me what happened. And that's an experience I did not have in the western states that I have had many times happen to me in Ohio. We moved back to Ohio in 1987, and in the last three years I've not had that experience. But through 1976, it happened frequently enough that that was a part of my reason for leaving home.

[Interviewer]: Does anyone today—what do you sense that they [unintelligible]?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: My experience lately is people have been more sympathetic or more open, I should say, to listening to what I have to say. I still have a fear of telling people that I was here because I probably still have this fear of people with their agenda go tell me what happened. I met with a women's group in my church yesterday and I didn't tell them I was coming here today. And I thought about that later and I know it's because I just didn't want to incur wrath. And I may not have--they may have been very open. But that fear lingers on in me, I guess.

[Interviewer]: Was this the first time you've been back in a while?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: I was here in 1988, the first spring that I was back. And I don't think I told anybody where I am now that I came then, and again, I just was here for that day then.

[Interviewer]: What has today been like?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Wet. It's been good. I guess a thing that I feel really good about is seeing somebody from the university--the president of the university--being out there on May 4th, and knowing that classes are cancelled, and seeing students--current students--a part of the group today. I don't know, but I sensed a good feeling between students and people who were there today, this time, which I think maybe a couple years ago, I'm not sure that was as true as it was today.

[Interviewer]: Did you come back specifically for the Memorial?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yes I did. I do have a sister in town, but I came back for the Memorial.

[Interviewer]: Getting back to May 4th day, how much did you witness? Did you witness the shootings or you just--

[Richard Karl Watkins]: I was in Dunbar third floor study lounge, which overlooks Prentice parking lot. It has an excellent view--at that time it did, trees have grown since then--at that time had a very good view of Blanket Hill and the Pagoda and everything then on that side of the hill between the top of the hill and Dunbar--the practice field, the parking lot. I didn't see the crowd on The Commons broken up. I knew the rally was there. I chose not to go, though I was still interested in what was going to happen. And watched the Guard chase students over the hill and watched things until the shootings and actually--I think I mentioned earlier--I left shortly after that, but I remember I was watching while the ambulances came and people were loaded on. And I think it was Robby Stamps I saw who was shot in the cheek--had a lot of blood.

[Interviewer]: [unintelligible].

[Richard Karl Watkins]: He was--but it looked terrible just because the amount of blood. The few days after the shootings I was home alone. My parents were working and younger brothers and sisters were in school and being home alone that few days I wondered if that sight was going to leave my mind. It did, but for a while I wondered if it ever would. I'm glad it did.

[Interviewer]: You were obviously in Kent all four days [unintelligible] and you were in Dunbar?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yes.

[Interviewer]: Now up to that time, how long had you been at Kent State?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: I was a sophomore at Kent, so I'd been there.

[Interviewer]: Did you have any idea of any kind--that anything like this [unintelligible].

[Richard Karl Watkins]: I remember, just a couple weeks before, talking to one of the workers in the cafeteria of--there were some things going on at Ohio State, some demonstrations that may have gotten violent. And I remember one of us saying we were glad we were in Kent because that wouldn't happen here--we're not like Ohio State. So that's something that stuck with me, because I can remember where I was in the line when I said that--in the cafeteria line. In retrospect it seems absurd. Seemed very real when we were talking about it back then.

[Interviewer]: When was the first inkling that you had that there could be some trouble?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Let's see. It would have been the 2nd.

[Interviewer]: Do you recall when the Cambodia speech was made?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Vaguely, I remember.

[Interviewer]: Did that strike you as maybe like a catalyst for this or was it--

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah, it probably was, though the way I remember experiencing that was hearing more students' anger than before. Before that, the students who were opposed to the war in Vietnam seemed like a very small group and with the invasion of Cambodia that sort of spread to everybody. One of the things that surprised me on the evening of Saturday evening the 2nd was I went over to Blanket Hill late and there were people from Dunbar that I thought were pretty conservative who were yelling, "Burn it down!"--the ROTC building. And I remember thinking, That's bizarre because that person's pretty conservative--or that group of guys is pretty conservative. And it just seemed unreal in some ways. And I think that's part of the reason at that point, or not too long after that, I went back into Prentice to think about what was going on.

[Interviewer]: Did that shock you?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah. Because evidently, these people were a lot more angry about a number of things than they'd been before.

[Interviewer]: And did you think you were--did you feel like [unintelligible] Kent State was just getting more intense each day?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah, definitely. I remember hearing about some stuff on Friday night, Saturday morning--the stuff downtown. And some talk about--I think I heard there was going to be a rally or a demonstration or something like that on Saturday night. And then certainly when I saw it, it was definitely more intense than anything I'd seen in Kent. And then the National Guard came in on Saturday night. I remember the helicopters flying around with the search lights and followed people over from Blanket Hill to Leebrick or to Tri-Towers or Twin Towers--that area. And people running and the helicopters going back and forth.

[Interviewer]: What was that like?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: It was scary. Didn't really know what quite to make of it or what was going to happen to you if you were caught out.

[Interviewer]: Who do you feel was in control?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: It didn't really look like much was in control at that time. Though I figured the National Guard had guns with bayonets on them--they had power but I remember--one of the scenes I remember was I was in Prentice Hall and they were trying to get people to go into Prentice and they marched up the sidewalk in formation. Some went into Prentice and others just ran off to the sides. That was sort of strange. I didn't think they had it much in control yet. They were trying to control the situation, but not really controlling it much.

[Interviewer]: Did you have any [unintelligible]?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Nope. I talked to some National Guardsmen on Sunday afternoon at University High School. We were talking to them and an officer came around and told them not to talk to us. I went back to Dunbar at that point--not too long after that.

[Interviewer]: [unintelligible].

[Richard Karl Watkins]: They seemed like normal guys. Not much different than us.

[Interviewer]: Did you get any idea of how they felt to be there?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: No. I'm sure that they probably preferred being about anywhere else. But in our discussion, we were probably just asking them where they were from, those kinds of things. Friendly conversation.

[Interviewer]: Skipping to Monday, did you get any idea [unintelligible] or was there anybody that tipped you off that things would be [unintelligible] or was it just another rally?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Sunday night, the Guard again chased people across campus and tear-gas was fired by Dunbar Hall again--it came in through the windows. And I heard that some people had gotten bayoneted on Sunday night so that sounded pretty serious to me. That was probably my biggest reason for not attending the rally on The Commons. I had a geology class in which there was discussion. Some people in the class were intending--or were definitely going to the rally. Some wanted no part of it. Some would but they were afraid of what might happen.

[Interviewer]: And in the aftermath of the shootings, you left?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah, probably within twenty minutes--maybe half an hour. The ambulances had arrived and had loaded people in and had taken them out--so I don't know how long it took for the ambulances to get there--I remember it seemed like a long time. But it was shortly after the ambulances left that my friend and I left.

[Interviewer]: Did you have any trouble leaving town?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: No. We just drove right out town. Actually, I don't remember it being any more difficult getting out of town than any other time.

[Interviewer]: Did you go [unintelligible]?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah. We went up [State Route] 43 to the Turnpike, got on, and went west.

[Interviewer]: What happened [unintelligible]?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: I don't remember a whole lot.

[Interviewer]: [unintelligible].

[Richard Karl Watkins]: It was never--we were listening to the radio to find out what was going on and remember hearing about two National Guardsmen being shot and one student. And we figured that that most likely was wrong. If anything, maybe one National Guardsman because we didn't see any of them fall up there. But I do remember we were driving for a while and I said to my friend, "Let's stop at a rest area. I got to get some Coke or something, I'm feeling sick to my stomach." I doubt that we talked much, and generally, we talked a lot. I think we were probably most stunned. Just before I left, Larry had to get some stuff. I just grabbed a couple things. I called--my father was a school principal--and called and just left a message that I was okay and on my way home.

[Interviewer]: [unintelligible].

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Yeah. So when we got there, my family knew that I was on my way home. So that made it easier. I'm sure I've told people a lot of times as soon as I met them what I had seen.

[Interviewer]: I have one more question. What about your encounters in town with the townspeople? Were they [unintelligible], was that ever an issue?

[Richard Karl Watkins]: Was never an issue for me. The people I met from town generally were pretty friendly. I can't remember any experiences that I had--I heard of other people but I never had any.

I think that's what I can think of.

[Interviewer]: All right.

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