Jim Sprance, Oral History

Recorded: May 4, 2000
Interviewed by Henry Halem
Transcribed by BethAnne Shaup

Note: This transcript includes geo-references to locations that are discussed in the oral history. Geographical names linked in the transcript will open in a new window or tab that takes you to that location information and map in the Mapping May 4 project. To request a transcript without geo-reference links included, please contact Kent State University Special Collections & Archives.

[Interviewer]: I am Henry Halem and we are at the Student Center its May 4, 2000. Could you tell us your name and what you were doing on May 4?

[Jim Sprance]: Well May 4, 2000 that is something.

[Interviewer]: Would you state your name first.

[Jim Sprance]: My name is Jim Sprance and in 1970 May the fourth I was junior here at Kent State University. I was a major in Aerospace Technology. And I eventually graduated from Kent in August of '71. Yeah, I guess I'd kinda like to start out by saying that I came to Kent from New York, I grew up and went to high school in New York, Yonkers, New York, which is just outside of New York City. I picked Kent because at that point Kent was one of the few places that had an aerospace department. I picked it out of Barons Guide to Colleges on my lunch hour from work one day, and said I'm going there. And like I said I wanted to start by saying from the day I arrived at Kent through now it's been like a continuing love story. It really has, I have had an attachment from the day I arrived here. And I continue to have that attachment. I have been fortunate enough that my wife still has family here in the local area so I have been back a lot, but I have never been back for a May 4 commemoration. And as I thought about coming back this year, I've been absolutely overwhelmed with the emotional energy and psychic energy that has been spent up and is there. I did not know it was there, and here it is thirty years later. And that is why I kinda started out by saying wow, May the fourth 2000.

Anyway, having read a lot of the transcripts that you folks have put out on the web, my story really in a lot of respects pales in comparison. Some of those very compelling and emotional stories that I read they absolutely blew me away. As I took some time over the past couple nights to read them. Yeah, I was there, and so was my future wife at that point, Mickey, who was a Home Ec major at that point. Mickey was a commuter from Stow, and what amazes me, even though she stood with me there on May the fourth as we will get into, because she was a commuter she didn't have that same attachment that I had to Kent State. Having lived on the campus and off, and its really kinda amazing the way that has gone down. Anyway, there was really nothing truly extraordinary about us. We were pretty much typical Kent State students pretty much middle of the road. Of course, at that point we were both anti-war, yeah but not militantly so. We didn't agree what was going, but I will be perfectly honest with you. In December of the previous year of 1969, I sat around a round table on 550 South Lincoln Street just off campus here with my roommates when the first draft was held. My number was 177, that's a number you never really forget. So I knew, that I was probably not going to get drafted, and so I lost a little bit of that immediacy that occurred. You know, we still felt and believed what we believed but I was just kinda removed from it that one step. So really I guess what you can say Henry, was that we were probably the typical middle of the road students. We weren't radical but we weren't conservative. We were Kent State Students at that point.

On Friday, I can't even remember where we were on Friday, and to be honest with you I can't even remember the ceremony on Thursday where they buried the constitution, it passed me right by. You know a 19 or 20 year old kid, springtime had a lot of other things on my mind, had a beautiful girl I was in love with and it was springtime. On Saturday, I do recall where we were. On Saturday, again we weren't' here on campus, we were at the drive-in. We were watching LET IT BE, the Beatles' movie. It's as clear as day. So I really did not know what had happened until I returned to 550 South Lincoln Street after getting back that night. Obviously the roommates who I had were all abuzz cause the ROTC building had been burned by that point, and you could feel this energy that was starting to develop. I'm sure it had been there, but I had not been a part of it until then. We got up early on Sunday, which is obviously unusual for a bunch of college guys living in a house just across the street from Kent State University. We were I think the word I would use is "dismayed", when I saw that this campus that I had truly grown attached to and loved was now really, it truly was an armed camp. Heck there was one of those troop carriers that was just parked, just a couple of streets down, just a couple houses down from where we were. The term-armed camp really does come to mind, because if I recall it right everywhere I went the Guard guys were there. In my opinion it was a terrible overreaction. I have done a lot of reading especially over the past few years, my position really hasn't really hardened or gelled until now, again 30 years later. Kinda amazing, but it really has. From everything I've seen Friday night downtown Kent, was it was springtime and it was downtown Kent. There were bands and there was beer. Some windows were broken but I think one over-reaction led to another. I really do in my heart believe that. Don't know a lot about the ROTC building and the burning and who was involved in that, again. My overwhelming remembrance is that it was "oh yeah, but no big deal," we are talking about a throwaway building it was and other things had happened across the country. And you know Kent was really not exactly a hot bed of activism at that point.

So anyway, we spent a lot of time on Sunday walking around the campus and I kinda felt that there was a lot of energy in the air but it was also kind of a game, I do remember talking to a Guardsmen over by the old library, Rockwell Hall. There were a bunch of them down there. I do remember talking to one of those guys who was there in line with a bunch of other ones. We asked them a question about bullets. "Do you guys really have bullets in those guns?" "No they did not issue us anything today." Well OK, So this is going to occur later, and I am sure you've heard this many times before in previous interviews. However, on Sunday, now, on Sunday night now, we're, I am a little bit more involved getting a little bit more personal with what was going on my campus. And I gotta say it again because it really was. Being only a few blocks away from the action on Sunday night happened, we wandered out of our house and walked the two blocks down and I think we were somewhere around Robin Hood on the corner there. And I think we arrived there pretty much when everything was said and done cause I don't remember tear gas. What I do remember is the sounds of helicopter blades that were overhead and I do remember the spotlights that were on the helicopters beaming down on a bunch of kids. And I seem to recall a bunch of kids sitting down on that area on the corner. But again interesting but not a whole lot going on.

So anyway we went back, and Monday dawn, it was a beautiful day, if I remember it was an absolutely gorgeous day. It was unusual for me, it was unusual because for some reason I got up and went to my ECON 261 class over in Franklin Hall. Hell, you can probably count the number of times I went to that class on a hand, I'm sure I had problems finding the room, but I went, I don't know why. I did. Again there was an air of expectations the best way I can describe. There was a feeling on campus. It was this energy that you could really truly feel, you could physically feel it. And that went on all morning. We knew that this game, and that really what it I think a lot of us thought it was, that this game was going to continue. There was another chapter that was going to occur. We had seen what happened Friday, Saturday, and Sunday and now the game was going to continue. But it was a game. In our minds, I think in a lot of our minds, again you are talking to the guy who considers himself to be a middle of the road guy. Not out there to do any real protesting I am an observer, really more or less but it was a game it truly was, no one ever really, I think, expected what was going to happen. Anyway, after class, and it was a mid morning class, I remember it let out and I remember walking back across campus just up to the Hub that is where the Student Activity Center used to be all those years ago. I met Mickey, my future wife there. We at that point said "so what do you want to do, go into the Hub or nah, lets go look and see what is going on here on The Commons. See if this rally was going to occur". We were going to go watch the game again we really were. We had no idea at that point that gatherings of people were going to be broken up that they were illegal, or declared illegal. Or whatever Rhodes did. I had real bad feelings for James Rhodes, too. Terrible bad feelings for James Rhodes.

Let me divert for a minute, I was talking to my wife about this just the other night who had been talking to some of her friends, and they are all the same age. And she bumped into one of her associates at work who said, "Oh yeah you know I will never eat at Wendy's again". And my wife asked her why. And she said, "well the Rhodes family is a major stockholder in that". Well guys guess where I am not going to eat, now that I know that. I have very hard feelings for what he did. I think he over-reacted and he ignited what I think it could have blown over easy. That's the guy who should have been on trial. Really should have been.

Anyway, back to the story, met Mickey at the Hub and we walked over to the ROTC building, where it had been burned down. I do remember a cordon of troops who were around the building at that point. Also there was a lot of Guards guys, a lot of vehicles jeeps and things like that in front of them just off The Commons. But what I do remember Henry, is that it was such an absolutely beautiful day. It really truly was, it was warm that day, I think probably for the first time of the year. And we got there and were milling in a crowd, we were milling in a crowd of probably maybe five to seven hundred people. About really the same size of the crowd formed up on the hill. Unless I really missed it, there wasn't much of a demonstration going on, on that hill at all. There was a bunch of people. But I think there were a lot of people who like Mickey and myself, who where there to see what's going on, on my campus. Besides it's a gorgeous day I m going to be out there. I often wondered, by the way why the crowd I was in wasn't broken up. Anyway as we stood there I can remember we were talking about the events and had some friends join us here and there. As a matter of fact I think I talked to the Dr Rautenstauch who was the head of the aerospace department... -- no he was one of the professors of the aerospace department who actually was there for a while. We chatted. We chatted about what had happened over the weekend if I remember right. We also chatted about things that were going on in the courses as well.

My next very, very vivid memory you have on your brochure is watching the Guard guys move out and walk up the hill. I can remember seeing the tear gas thing, it was a big game of catch with the tear gas canisters going on. But again Henry, it was still a game in my mind. There wasn't a violent demonstration going on. I did not see any rocks being thrown at that point, I did see canisters being traded back and forth. Yeah the images of the Guard guys walking up the hill is just as vivid as if it had happened 15 minutes ago. It's that vivid and clear. Again a little diversion, Chuck Ayers cartoon, Crankshaft. The full panel from last Sunday just captures that so perfectly. He deserves a lot of credit too. I hope you get to interview him. Yeah we watched the game of catch go on. Again I knew it was a game, I knew, I knew that nobody had real bullets. There was no doubt in my mind that wasn't even a consideration. The Guard went up and I think they split and one group went around to the right of Taylor Hall and disappeared. And then there was some time when we down there by the ROTC building, we really didn't know what was going on. The crowd had kinda gone different ways the Guard was out of sight. And this was the point they were doing their circle thing I guess.

And this was the point that I had to go back and read what happened behind that building; because my next remembrance is turning to Mickey and saying "who were the assholes who just shot off those damn firecrackers?" And I did believe they were firecrackers. Because if you take a look at the way Taylor Hall is built, it has some alcoves and some balconies, and I am thinking firecrackers. Yeah, they're just kinda echoing off the building. Who are those jerks doing something like that? There was a delay. Not a long delay at that point. The next thing I remember is ambulances going up the hill. Right up to where all the flowers are planted right now. At that point we kinda stepped back and said what a minute maybe this isn't a game. And then word started to filter down from there. Of what had happened. Initially the reports, and what we were hearing from the Guard guys around us that some of our guys had been shot. That was the first thing we had heard. Obliviously it was true. Gradually word filtered down what had happened we did not know how many kids had been shot. We didn't really realize that any of the kids were killed. In fact I don't remember finding out that students had been killed until we were listening to the radio on the way out of town. That I'll get to in a minute.

Like I said at that point we were sitting there very stunned and in disbelief, really ignorant of what was going on. My next remembrance was a crowd reforming on the hill. I could see that very, very clearly, I think they felt pretty much the way we felt. We were stunned, we were confused and I think we were angry -- because this wasn't the game I've been alluding so often, over the past few minutes. We had the damn army on our campus and there was shooting going on. I remember seeing Glenn Frank, very clearly, I believe he had a bull horn on him that day. And we could catch snip-its of what he was saying from where we were standing still behind the ROTC building. I am convinced that his actions, and there was another professor too I can't remember his name but I am convinced that those gentlemen saved a whole lot more lives that day There's no doubt in my mind. I could feel the tension going up on that hill and not knowing what was going to go on next. Knowing now that there had been, that they actually fired I was now really worried that they were going to fire again. The game was over. At that point I kinda realized that Mickey and I were also standing in a group of people. I said "Christ, we could be next". My next thought was that I needed, it wasn't for myself, for some reason I felt this need to get Mickey off the campus. We had heard "Hhey the school was closed leave the campus." Those things had started to filter down.

So I can remember working my way back through the crowd back to 550 South Lincoln Street not very far away and getting in the car. My next really truly vivid memory was as we were departing the campus. Cause really what I had to do at that point I had to take the main drag out here to Main Street, go across where the railroad tracks go through the bridge, way before the bypass stuff, and take that road straight out of Kent to where Mickey lived. Now that was an interesting ride, because here I was, a 20, 21 year old long hair couldn't tell by now, by this look but curly long hair. I can remember I used to love to wear ROTC shirts that I bought for a quarter. Cause they were cool. That was the look obviously with jeans. But here's the big thing in addition to the long hair; I was driving a Volkswagen that had flowered hubcaps with New York state license plates on it. The looks that we got, I'll never forget them. As we were driving and I seem to even recall people writing things down. Maybe it was the license plate or something like that. But I remember that. I remember that drive. Cause we had to go though town. I remember people writing stuff down and looking.

I was actually kinda, was my psychic energy also kinda arose just this morning. Cause I got a call from a guy named Bob Batts who is a writer for the Dayton Daily News and that's where we live now. Down in Dayton. And he actually interviewed me about how I felt and some of these remembrances. And I read the article before coming up here this morning before driving up here. One of the interviews he conducted just before mine, I was telling Chris about it just a couple minutes ago. He interviewed a guy who was a ROTC student obviously very straight laced very conservative, who was telling him in this article how proud he was to have worked with the police to jot down license plate number of out of state cars. The police apparently asked them to take a position somewhere and to write down license plate numbers. Then they had my interview next where I said I witnessed murder, mayhem, and assault. The two interviews were really black and white, it was really quite amazing.

Anyway I got Mickey home and then to Stow, it took forever if I remember right, to get out of town. Then, well at that point Mick's dad, who did not like me a whole lot for all the reasons we talked about. But I wound up staying there for a day because Kent essentially was sealed off. And they weren't letting anybody with long hair and Volkswagens with New York license plates back into Kent. I guarantee you. So I stayed out there for a couple days. And it seems to me it was two or three days before we packed up the house, and I left and went back to New York until school reopened cause I came back during the summer. I went back and what I did was I drove a cab in New York, as my part-time job whenever I was home. I can remember on a number of occasions getting into discussions with the passengers in the back of the car. I heard the litany of "damn it, they should have shot you all" to "they should've shot more" to "what the hell is the matter with the Guard ... how could they miss so many people." There was one point Henry, where one guy pissed me off so bad that I stopped the car and said you have to get out I am not taking you any further. I was appalled, truly appalled. As I still am now of the ignorance of what actually happened on that day which is why I wanted to come and do this because there is a lot of perceptions out there that a lot of the students were still the guilty party. They really weren't. They really weren't. And I am not going to blame the Guard either. I'm going to blame the people that controlled the Guard who made the situation worse. Hell, the vast majority of the Guard guys were kids our age, as confused as we were. I do believe there were some in there that had ulterior motives. It'll never be proven cause it's too late.

I'm going to end my discussion with telling you a bit of a conflict I've lived with for thirty years now. Remember I told you in the beginning of the discussion that I was an aerospace student? I had a love of flying. I learned to fly out here at the Kent Airport. Believe it or not when I graduated Kent I went into the Air Force. And I became a fighter pilot. I became an officer. Two years ago I retired as a Lieutenant Colonel. And people ask me how do you resolve the two? You obviously have very pent up sort of feelings on what happened to you at Kent and that whole era. That answer to that is that I never had to use force against college kids, or people in my own country. And that's the difference. If it was a just use of force, and I was fortunate in that, and I did not have to go to war but I was prepared to go to war for the right types of things. This clearly wasn't. Anyway I am glad to be back. And I appreciate you taking the time to listen to my story for what it's worth.

[Interviewer]: That's terrific. Thank you very much.

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