Martha Dishman, Oral History

Recorded: May 2, 2010
Interviewed by Craig Simpson
Transcribed by Amanda Faehnel

Note: This transcript includes geo-references to locations that are discussed in the oral history. Geographical names linked in the transcript will open in a new window or tab that takes you to that location information and map in the Mapping May 4 project. To request a transcript without geo-reference links included, please contact Kent State University Special Collections & Archives.

[Interviewer]: Good morning. The date is Saturday, May 2, 2010. My name is Craig Simpson and we're conducting an interview today for the Kent State Shootings Oral History Project and could you please state your name?

[Martha Dishman]: My name is Martha Dishman.

[Interviewer]: Where were you born?

[Martha Dishman]: I was born in Malone, New York.

[Interviewer]: Okay. And when did you come to Kent State?

[Martha Dishman]: I transferred to Kent State in 1969.

[Interviewer]: Okay. Where did you transfer from?

[Martha Dishman]: Mohawk Valley Community College in Utica, New York.

[Interviewer]: What made you decide to come to Kent?

[Martha Dishman]: My friend and I were interested in transferring to a four year school and we had a friend whose brother came to Kent. And Kent was large and further away, and sounded like the type of place that we would enjoy academically as well as socially.

[Interviewer]: What was your major?

[Martha Dishman]: Psychology.

[Interviewer]: And what were your impressions of the university once you got here?

[Martha Dishman]: I was favorably impressed. I liked the fact that it was on the quarter system and really enjoyed the fact that we could take many more classes throughout the year than typical semesters. The campus was lovely, the small town atmosphere of kind of--the students were pretty much the home of--the university was home for everyone and it was really nice to come.

Not unlike New York and being upstate, but Ohio was kind of different. And the one unique thing they said in the documentary last night is Kent State was well known. Well, it may have been well known in the Midwest, but every time we would go to New York, I would say, I go to Kent State in Ohio, and people would say, Penn State isn't in Ohio. So until the shootings, I think it was probably one of the largest unknown universities in the country.

[Interviewer]: I've heard that a lot. Other people have said Canton, they'd call it Canton State.

[Martha Dishman]: No, maybe in Ohio it was well known, but not out of the area.

[Interviewer]: Yeah, definitely not out of the area. And were you involved--I just asked Diane [Gallagher] this question too, but were you involved in the protest movement at all or were you more--

[Martha Dishman]: Yes. I had gotten involved, I had gone to Washington, and we'd certainly gotten involved around the time of Nixon entering Cambodia, really involved in anti-war protests and whatever was going on at Kent at the time and felt strongly about opposing the war and whatever was happening here, and in the things that were happening around the May fourth weekend. And we were involved in the protests on the campus. And I'd not gone downtown the night that they had broken the windows but we were on campus when the [National] Guard had come on to campus. And when they had closed the campus down, the curfew, we were all in front of the campus expecting the president to come.

It was quite a horrifying experience because we were sitting there and really anticipating--the idea that they would bring the Guard was horrifying, but it wasn't just armed, because if the police came, they would be armed and looked terrifying--that they came with all the military vehicles and the tanks and that we were under siege. That we were in a military zone and it was mystifying as well as horrifying that the university would allow such a thing to happen. Not that maybe somebody else might have decided this, but that the university would want--there's certain academic freedom in the sense that you're in a unique environment, coming to college, and that they brought this in to solve the problem of protest against the war, which wasn't just students everywhere. By this time in the war, there were a lot of people protesting what was going on and a lot of sentiment against the war. It wasn't a small group. I mean, yes, there were some people within SDS [Students for a Democratic Society] and doing more violent things and worrying that--but that's still not involving themselves with all this kind of overkill response.

So by the time we got down to the front of campus and sat there, and then the truly horrifying thing were the helicopters with the lights. And I'd never seen a tank, but they sent the tanks into the crowd, and tanks, I didn't realize, they can just turn like this, but they sent them into the crowd. And it was really just utterly amazing. And then chased everyone back with tear gas to the dorms.

[Interviewer]: You meant that they could turn very quickly, is that what you meant?

[Martha Dishman]: Yeah. That they come right in, but I thought they were going to just go into us, but then they can turn automatically in another direction and veer away from us. But when you're sitting there, you don't realize that this huge machine is capable of getting out of your way faster than you can.

[Interviewer]: Right. [unintelligible]

[Martha Dishman]: Yes. It was truly a horrifying--and that the president never came out. I think one of the many profound lessons is the lack of leadership across the board. You know, that we were young and naive in feeling protected and feeling that we had rights and feeling that we were going to be heard, but the profound lack of leadership at the governor's level and the military level and the presidential level--there was no leadership at all exhibited. Against unarmed students protesting the war, I mean, it was horrifying to look back on. The failure for all of them. You know, for us it was traumatic to be unprotected but for them, it was a huge failure for them to not be able to manage a crisis. And in my career, it's had a profound influence on wanting to be sure to manage fairly and well and consider the consequences for the people that disagree with you. And to look at how do you make sure that you don't end up with chaos or disaster or, I mean, at the worst case, what happened to us, because it was truly horrible.

[Interviewer]: Now, you mention that Kent State was on the quarter system. It's on semester now but being on a quarter system, that was also, beginning that Monday, May 4, that was midterm week as well.

[Martha Dishman]: Yes.

[Interviewer]: Do you remember trying to study for midterms with the helicopters buzzing around or was it just impossible?

[Martha Dishman]: Well, I think all that weekend, just thinking about that we had--it kind of took away the horror of them being there. And that was more important to go out and protest against. It changed from being anti-war to being get the Guard off campus. You know, defending our rights, that this was no way to deal with a protest they didn't like to then terrorize us who were protesting. You know, it was overkill response to the fire at the ROTC building. It was overkill to whatever they thought might be going on on campus. It was so far, and seeing last night in the documentary Governor Rhodes' response, "Get them. Get them all," was--I hadn't seen that clip. I mean, I knew he was running for re-election or he was running for something--

[Interviewer]: He was running for the Senate, right.

[Martha Dishman]: So he was expecting benefit from bringing--and also that the president of the university was nowhere to be found and in no way, shape, at all wanting to have a calm face or to combat what had happened to his campus.

[Interviewer]: Did you witness any of those events, the ROTC building or anything that happened Sunday?

[Martha Dishman]: We weren't there at the ROTC building events. We were out on the campus and chased by the Guard with teargas on different events when we were trying to protest. There were different calls for protests. Then we were walking around campus a lot during the day when they came on to campus. Different people would attempt to talk to the Guard and they would be not willing to speak, you know, they were--I remember Allison [Krause] had put a flower in one of the Guard's bayonets. They were, I think, as frightened as the students, in some respect. Not all of them, some of them were probably felt strongly about being there, but it was just an overwhelming scene to have so many of them, like we were in the war.

[Interviewer]: Where were you on Monday, May 4?

[Martha Dishman]: On Monday, we were late for some reason and had [been] getting ready to go to the rally and we were late from lunch and we were walking over and we were later than the time, but we were headed over there. And students started running back, going, Go back, go back. And we went back--I was in Metcalf Hall and we went to the lounge and on the radio--campus radio--they were announcing that a National Guardsman had been shot, and then they told us that we had to leave, that we were evacuated.

And Di and I went home with a friend from our dorm and we stayed for a day or so but the parents decided we were too depressing. They didn't want to hear about the events, so we had to work our way back to New York.

[Interviewer]: Do you think those erroneous reports about the Guardsman being shot added to how people initially perceived the event? How they treated the Kent State students afterward?

[Martha Dishman]: I think it was unbelievable though. Because at first, I think nobody wanted to believe that this could have happened. That the Guard could have open fired on unarmed students. You know, and then there was a lot of talk about, Well, they were throwing rocks. Well, if they were or if they weren't, why would they be shot? And then two students were between classes and that was fairly horrifying.

And I think everybody was in their own camp to begin with. The people that were supportive of anti-war protesting, and the people that were Governor Rhodes supporters, and I think that it fairly lined up along those lines. And then they indicted the Kent 25 in an effort to justify what had happened, but you got a lot of response based on whether or not you had college students in your family and whether you were the parents of them, or whether you knew people that were there when I went back home and they could relate to how horrifying this would be if you had a college kid on a campus or whether or not you were those damn protestors. You know? They shouldn't be doing that, whether they thought they should have been shot is another thing but if they weren't doing anything wrong, then nothing bad should have happened to them.

People that supported the war and supported the government and were against any form of speaking out didn't seem to be swayed by how horrifying it was, unless they met us personally, unless we talked personally to people. I mean, it geared up all of the people that were already protesting and really got people, I think grabbed more people who were in and around campuses, and more people that maybe were on the fringe, and maybe hadn't gone out to protest and maybe had not felt strongly about it. I think there were people then who came to the anti-war movement after that.

[Interviewer]: I think that's an interesting point because there's sometimes an impression that the shootings ended the anti-war movement but I know just kind of what you said--I know Tom Grace has a book coming out where he kind of argues the opposite though--a lot of people wound up joining it afterward.

[Martha Dishman]: Yes. I think it based on who was in proximity, I think, to campuses and families and the parents of Sandy Scheuer. She was walking between class. They became supporters and came to the events to commemorate and they could have had reason to feel differently about it. She was an innocent victim. She wasn't protesting.

And some people could have felt supportive of the National Guard for one reason or another, or Governor Rhodes--I mean, there must be people [who] supported him. I mean, he didn't win the election at that point, but he came back to be governor later. So, I think in the dynamics of it, that there were people who stuck in because they didn't want to change their point of view, but there were a large number of people that were wanting to get on board. This got them there. This got them there in a more vocal way. You know, maybe they didn't agree with the war, but they hadn't ever gone to a protest march or signed a petition or done anything actively and this was the impetus for it, I think.

[Interviewer]: Interesting. Did you take correspondence courses that summer?

[Martha Dishman]: Yes. The professors were fantastic. Everything got sent home. They made it totally easy for us to be able to finish our quarter. There, you felt no support from the university. When all of this was happening, it was as if we were abandoned and we were left off in some foreign land and we were surrounded by military and somehow the university had left and gone someplace else. And they got the last boat out and left us hanging.

But as soon as we were out of the university, the professors were absolutely fabulous, really fabulous, and made real effort to make sure that we didn't have a lost quarter, and then when we came back, lots was done. But the administration was really lacking in leadership, really lacking in leadership. I mean, that whole thing in '77 when they wanted to build the gym. That shows a real lack of proper leadership and proper recognition of the symbol--you know, it happened here. You don't desecrate or make light or want to just change history because it would be convenient for you and the land is there.

[Interviewer]: Right. After that summer, did you return to campus and graduate?

[Martha Dishman]: In the fall--I graduated in '72.

[Interviewer]: Okay. Is this your first time back since?

[Martha Dishman]: It is the first time back. Yeah. When Diane said, "This is the fortieth, let's go," and I thought--I don't know why I haven't, but it's a distance and I just haven't. It's very important, because it was a life-changing experience. It was very important in my life and you know, growing up, you grow up and you view the world differently if you were here.

[Interviewer]: Does the campus seem different now?

[Martha Dishman]: It seems familiar yet changed, you know? It's Kent, but it's kind of like I'm lost in a familiar surrounding. (laughs)

[Interviewer]: I know what you mean. Because this library I think was just being built then in 1970 and this side of campus, some of this is fairly new. I think when you get closer to Front Street [Front Campus] that's when you get to kind of the older part of campus. Interesting. Are there any more thoughts you would like to share?

[Martha Dishman]: Just that I think that everybody that was here and participated in that time, they all lost their innocence and we were in the least likely place for this to have happened. If it had happened at Columbia or Berkeley, people would have said, What would you expect? But for it to happen at Kent.

In the documentary it said it was planned to happen, because they wouldn't have as many wealthy families to protest or do things about. But then again, it shouldn't have happened here because there should have been that Middle America ethic that should have, at the university level, at the senior military level, and at the governor's level, somebody should have stopped.

[Interviewer]: Martha, thank you very much.

[Martha Dishman]: Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome.

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