John Cleary, Oral History

Recorded: May 3, 2010
Interviewed by Craig Simpson
Transcribed by Amanda Faehnel

Note: This transcript includes geo-references to locations that are discussed in the oral history. Geographical names linked in the transcript will open in a new window or tab that takes you to that location information and map in the Mapping May 4 project. To request a transcript without geo-reference links included, please contact Kent State University Special Collections & Archives.

[Interviewer]: Good afternoon. The date is May 3, 2010 and my name is Craig Simpson. We're conducting an interview today for the May 4 Oral History Project and could you please state your name?

[John Cleary]: My name is John Cleary.

[Interviewer]: Okay. Where were you born, John?

[John Cleary]: I was born in upstate New York. Schenectady, New York.

[Interviewer]: Okay. And when did you come to Kent State?

[John Cleary]: I started in 1970.

[Interviewer]: Okay, you started, so you were--

[John Cleary]: Actually, it was actually '69.

[Interviewer]: Okay, so you were a freshman?

[John Cleary]: I was a freshman at the time, yeah. It was fall of 1969.

[Interviewer]: Okay. What made you decide to come to Kent State all the way from Schenectady, if I said that right?

[John Cleary]: Yeah. Oh, it was kind of interesting. I was looking at architecture schools and my father had a coworker whose son went to Kent and he was in architecture school. So, I remember going over one evening to his house and he had all sorts of neat models and things that they were doing here at Kent and it kind of piqued my interest so we looked at a few New York schools, Syracuse, and we came out to Kent for a weekend orientation and liked the campus and decided this would be a good place to go.

[Interviewer]: So was your major in architecture or something--

[John Cleary]: Yes.

[Interviewer]: Okay, great. Did you like the school?

[John Cleary]: Yeah. I just liked the feel of the campus, I liked the program, and I went through Taylor Hall and I could see some of the projects that they were working on and it looked like it would be something I'd be interested in doing.

[Interviewer]: How would you describe the culture of the campus in general that year?

[John Cleary]: When I started, it was probably beginning, I would say, a transition. And when I started, they still had in the dorms, you had--gosh, I can't remember what they called them now but--oh, resident hall person. You know, you didn't necessarily have curfews, but they kind of watched a little more with the students. And as the year wore on, and I think in subsequent years, things got a little more looser in terms of overall supervision of the dorms.

And just the manner of the way people dressed. When I started there, you began to see people more in, you know, blue jeans and bellbottoms. You didn't see people really that dressed up going to school. I know when I kind of talked to the one student that my father knew, he was an older upperclassman, and at those times when he first started, they kind of wore better clothes to class. But there seemed to be a real air of casualness that was kind of creeping in the year that I was there.

And in terms of, you know, the war was going on, and you had kind of this mix of anti-war sentiment. There were more conservative people there also. So, the weekends, very often there was usually something going on. You know, on The Commons, somebody--a certain group or whatever--that was expounding for their cause.

[Interviewer]: Did your feelings toward the war change at all?

[John Cleary]: Yeah, I came from a real conservative family and I think kind of coming from a rural upstate New York upbringing, you know. I had friends that were in the military, so I think coming on the campus at the time, I pretty much supported what they were doing. But as you began to listen to some of the protests and you heard what people were saying, it started to create some doubt and some questions in my mind, as what we were doing over there, should we really be there? And some of the actions, you know, the My Lai Massacre, some of the other things that were happening over there. The type of Agent Orange and some of the other weapons that we were using over there. Was this really the right thing to do?

[Interviewer]: Did you find that that was reflective of the student body in general, that kind of shift in consciousness? Or was there a lot of variety?

[John Cleary]: I'd say you really had a lot of mixed. Some of the students that I went to classes with were pretty much dedicated to their classwork and there wasn't a lot of political talk in the groups. Architecture was a hard program. It was a lot of hours, extra hours put into work and I would say most of any kind of political talk or discussions were for people outside of my major. Most of the people in my major, we were basically just concentrating on getting our homework done and helping one another study for tests or kind of bantering back and forth about design issues. To be honest, politics really didn't come up.

[Interviewer]: Yeah. That was probably more like sociology and things like that. Interesting. You talked about the general casualness of the atmosphere. Did you find that the casualness turned tense as the spring came about in 1970, particularly like that weekend of May 1, 1970?

[John Cleary]: I wasn't aware of that. I mean, the tenseness that developed over that weekend had to do with the presence of the military on campus. I think that it was really the first nice spring day, so it brought a lot of people out. And then after everything that happened on Friday night, the [National] Guard coming in on Saturday. I think because of some people's feelings about the military at the time, there was a lot of tension that was created from the fact that there were military vehicles, jeeps, trucks, and personnel kind of almost setting up camp on the campus, that that created a tension between the students and the Guardsmen.

[Interviewer]: Were you anywhere on campus like that Friday night or Saturday?

[John Cleary]: Yeah. Friday night I was pretty much in my dorm but, you know, word of mouth, you could hear there was something going on downtown or that there were some issues. I know that the students, after some of the activities had happened downtown, came on campus. There were some overturned trash cans and that sort of thing going on. No real damage on campus. But I would say I pretty much stuck around my dorm. I was staying in Stopher Hall at the time, which was kind of right off of The Commons. So it was a subsequent--on Saturday, I was right there when a lot of the activities started with the ROTC building.

[Interviewer]: Did you witness that?

[John Cleary]: Yes I did. There was a small group that gathered around the ROTC building and they seemed very intent on trying to set this building ablaze in almost kind of amateurish attempts. They had Molotov cocktails and they threw them through a couple windows but it didn't seem like anything ignited. And then they were taking rags and lighting rags and throwing them in the buildings, but nothing seemed to really catch the building on fire.

And I did notice it appeared to me that there might have been some--either police or some other type of enforcement--they were up on the hill in kind of the background, lined up, just kind of observing all of this but not really trying to intervene. And it almost seemed like they had kind of failed in their attempts and things were kind of tending to break up a little bit and suddenly then the building caught on fire. There was kind of this little surge of flames.

Shortly afterwards the fire department came and there was kind of a scuffle between the fire department and some of the protesters in trying to get their lines out to put the blaze out. And I'm a little bit hazy but it seems to me at that point then there was some either state police or Kent police and riot police finally came in and began to disperse the protestors. By that time, the building was pretty much in full blaze. So that's probably the highlight of Saturday.

[Interviewer]: Were you able to see all that from your dorm room or did you have to go down there?

[John Cleary]: I don't think my dorm actually overlooked that area, but I think what we did was we walked out; there was a terrace and we kind of stood there and watched.

[Interviewer]: Okay.

[John Cleary]: We could see what was going on.

[Interviewer]: And what do you remember about Sunday, the following day?

[John Cleary]: Sunday--I guess the National Guard actually came in Saturday night--there was a presence on campus of the National Guard on Sunday. It seemed at that time--it was almost like there was a little bit of communication between the Guardsmen and the students. Things were tense and yet there were some students that were talking to the Guardsmen, you know. It was almost like they were tolerating one another.

But then things kind of got ugly Sunday night. There was a curfew placed and I think they said that you weren't allowed to have more than three people--groups of three people--at certain times. I remember trying to go over to the cafeteria and we had to go over like in groups of ones or twos because if there were four or five people going over to the cafeteria to have dinner, they'd break you up.

And that night, there were some students that tried to defy the curfew. There was tear gas being shot. There was helicopters overhead with searchlights. It was almost like you were in the middle of a war zone. And we had problems in Stopher Hall because the wind brought the tear gas into the dorm so we had to leave the building and as we went out to the front of the building, they ordered us back into the building and we were trying to explain to them that, you know, we can't go back in the building because of all the tear gas. And they said, We don't care, you're not allowed to be out here.

So it was a pretty hectic night, and I think it went on long--you know, maybe two or three in the morning.

[Interviewer]: And were you studying for your midterms--or trying to?

[John Cleary]: Yeah. I think if I recall, I think I was trying to get some work done. I don't quite recall what it was, but the night was pretty much shot. You really couldn't do any work. You really couldn't stay in the rooms and I think we ended up down in the first floor lobby area trying to, you know, get away from the tear gas.

[Interviewer]: Sure. And did you go to any classes on Monday morning?

[John Cleary]: Yeah, I think I--boy, it's been so many years--I almost say it was an English or a history class. I did have a class that morning and I remember going to the building and they had Guardsmen stationed at each entrance to the building, I guess protecting the property. So it was a little bit intimidating, but you know, you went to class, you did your thing.

And then I had a design class in Taylor Hall and I borrowed my roommate's camera--I think it was just a little disposable camera--and I wanted to take some pictures because everyone was talking about how there was going to be a noon rally and that sort of thing. And so I went over to kind of just see what was going on and observe the protesters down on The Commons. And there was a line of Guardsmen that were kind of lined up in front of the burned out ROTC building. And they were ringing the victory bell and doing a lot of their anti-war slogans.

And The Commons is kind of like the center part of campus. So you had a lot of people--I think it was a change of class too, right around lunchtime. So there was a tremendous amount of people that were in the area. I would say probably the vast majority were either going to or from class, observing. And then you had the small pocket of protestors that were actively chanting and doing that sort of thing.

I think at some point there was a jeep that came out with a bullhorn and basically said, This is an unlawful assembly. You're not allowed to be here. Didn't seem to faze the protestors too much. In fact, if anything, it made them even angrier in terms of what they were saying and such.

At some point, there was an order given and Guardsmen started to move out and as they began to move out they shot volleys of tear gas into the crowd. And it seemed like a lot of the students were able to pick up the tear gas and throw it back their direction, so we kind of had this pitch and catch going on between the Guardsmen and the students. The Guardsmen tended to work their way up to the top of Blanket Hill where the pagoda was. They came back down over the other side of the hill and there was a practice football field there that was bounded by a chain link fence.

I kind of at that point walked off to the side to let them go by me as they came down the hill--took some pictures of them. I was fairly close but they just kind of walked right by me to the side. They went down to the practice football field and kind of huddled there for a while. It looked like they were talking over, What do we do now? Some of them knelt down and kind of took a firing position to the Prentice Hall parking lot. That seemed to be where the bulk of the anti-war protestors were.

They began to come back up the hill and at that point I kind of felt like things were winding down. You know, they made their advance, they pushed the students off of The Commons, so now they were going back to The Commons.

So I was heading back over to Taylor Hall. I was going to go back in for my class and I was standing near--there's a metal sculpture there--I was standing alongside of that. As they got near the top of the hill, I wanted to get one last picture of them before they went over the crest of the hill, so I was kind of getting my camera, I was winding it, getting ready to take another shot and suddenly, they just turned and fired. It was like this volley of gunshots.

And then I got hit in the chest. I guess the best way I can describe it is like getting hit in the chest with a sledgehammer. It just really knocked me down. I don't remember too much after that. I don't remember the ambulance ride. I do remember being in Ravenna Hospital, kind of being in a corridor and being afraid that someone was going to leave me there, that they were going to forget about me. It was very chaotic. There were a lot of people running around. I was sitting on a stretcher and I was kind of stuck out on a corner somewhere, but then eventually I must have been taken in to an operating room or whatever. I don't remember too much after that.

[Interviewer]: How long were you in the hospital?

[John Cleary]: I want to say about ten days. I think I was in intensive care for about three or four days and then I got moved into another room after that.

[Interviewer]: Did you go back home to New York or--

[John Cleary]: Yes.

[Interviewer]: Okay. Did you do correspondence courses or anything like that?

[John Cleary]: Well, the professors were really good about it. I think a lot of the people were in the same boat. I think actually finals weren't until like mid-June at that time and so we still had like another month of classes that we missed. So almost all of the professors made an opportunity, not only to the wounded students, but to everyone else to make up their classwork at home. And they would send you assignments and you would do those assignments and send them back. And that was before the time of email and everything, so everything was done through regular mail. And I remember finishing my assignments and able to get credit for that semester for all the courses.

[Interviewer]: So you were able to do your architectural classes?

[John Cleary]: Yes. I think rather than actually having us build models, they sent us design scenarios and things to study and a lot of it was writing papers, that sort of thing.

[Interviewer]: Okay. I've been amazed by the number of different kinds of correspondence classes people had. One person interviewed had a fencing class (laughs) and somehow she had to finish (laughs) by mail and that would be awkward, yeah.

[John Cleary]: Yeah. I couldn't very well build a model and send it.

[Interviewer]: (laughs) Right, right. What happened to your photographs? Because I assume you had a camera--

[John Cleary]: I had about, I'm going to say a dozen photographs that I took. They were confiscated by the FBI. I did actually see them at one of the trials and I tried several times to get copies and I never did.

[Interviewer]: Really? So did you come back to Kent or how did that work for the rest of your academic career?

[John Cleary]: Yeah. I came back to Kent. I wanted to start up where I was cut off and so I came back the following year and was able to graduate in five years. It was a five year program so I didn't really miss out on any time or anything.

[Interviewer]: What was the atmosphere like on campus when you returned?

[John Cleary]: I think probably the first week or two there might have been a little bit of apprehension as to what was going to happen. And I know my parents were a little apprehensive about me going back. They were a little bit concerned. But I think that once we got back into the swing of things and, you know, class workload and everything, I was pretty much back to doing classwork.

[Interviewer]: And what did you do after you finally graduated? Which I guess would have been '74 or '75?

[John Cleary]: Yeah. We ended up moving to Pittsburgh and I found work there and my wife was able to find work there and I don't think it was an intentional thing that we were going to stay there for the rest of our lives. It was kind of like why don't we try this out for a couple of years and see what we think. We didn't really have any long term plans but it worked out for us and we've been there ever since.

[Interviewer]: And did you attend the commemorations for a while or did you stay away for a while? How did that work?

[John Cleary]: I wouldn't say that I came a lot for maybe the first ten or fifteen years. Part of it was trying to get my feet on the ground in terms of career. I had always said that I wasn't going to let this stop me from my goals in life. And I wanted to pursue an architectural career and the first ten or fifteen years were pretty demanding in terms of your learning and you're expected to put in a lot of time and I had family commitments too. So I would say I didn't attend as regularly as a lot of the other people did. Now that I'm older and I have the luxury of time, I try to make a little more effort to come back more often.

[Interviewer]: What's it like being back for the fortieth [commemoration]?

[John Cleary]: It's a good feeling to be back on campus. It changes every time I come here, there's something new: new buildings or new construction, so the campus is constantly evolving. But yet you still see a lot of familiar things.

[Interviewer]: Probably a lot of familiar faces as the commemoration comes again.

[John Cleary]: Yeah.

[Interviewer]: Are there any more thoughts you would like to share?

[John Cleary]: I'm trying to think, there was something I was going to say. Oh gosh. I guess that's it.

[Interviewer]: Okay. Alright, well, John, thanks very much for coming.

[John Cleary]: Okay great.

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