Marc Miller, Oral History

Recorded: April 14, 2011
Interviewed by Stephen Paschen
Transcribed by Amanda Faehnel

Note: This transcript includes geo-references to locations that are discussed in the oral history. Geographical names linked in the transcript will open in a new window or tab that takes you to that location information and map in the Mapping May 4 project. To request a transcript without geo-reference links included, please contact Kent State University Special Collections & Archives.

[Interviewer]: This is Stephen Paschen, speaking on April 14, 2011 by telephone at Kent State University's Special Collections and Archives as part of the May 4 Oral History Project. I will be talking with Marc Miller. Marc, I would like to begin with a couple biographical questions, if you don't mind. First, let me ask you where you were born?

[Marc Miller]: I was born in Toledo, Ohio.

[Interviewer]: And when was that?

[Marc Miller]: May 15, 1948.

[Interviewer]: Alright. And where did you grow up?

[Marc Miller]: I spent the first four or five years in Toledo, and then we moved to Bowling Green, Ohio, where I spent all through high school up until the middle of my junior year, and we moved from Bowling Green to Toledo in probably 1964 or [196]5. I graduated from high school in Toledo in 1966. June 6, 1966 from Whitmer High School.

[Interviewer]: Tell me--I'm sorry, I'm jumping ahead of myself. Where did you go to college?

[Marc Miller]: I went to Kent State University. I started in the fall of 1967. Actually, fall quarter, I think I started in January, because my grades weren't good enough to get in during the September quarter and I had to wait until January, I believe.

[Interviewer]: Did you declare a major when you first arrived?

[Marc Miller]: I don't really remember that. I know that my first grades at Kent State were very bad. I believe my grade point average was about a 1.6, so I barely missed flunking out of school that first quarter, and it terrified me because of the Vietnam War. So I don't believe I had declared a major at that time, but I did soon after that. After that, my grades were good. I made the dean's list numerous times and actually had a 4.0 quarter, one of those quarters. So I was scared into staying in school because I didn't want to go to Vietnam.

[Interviewer]: What did you major in then?

[Marc Miller]: I ended up majoring in speech, and I had a minor in psychology almost all the way through, until my junior year, and my counselor at that time advised me that a minor in psychology would get me nowhere and I changed my minor at that time to--what I can remember was audio-visual communications. So I minored in that and actually got my first job where I student-taught as the director of the resource center at Glen Oak School in Gates Mills, Ohio under Zelda Struther who also had graduated from Kent State previously.

[Interviewer]: How did you find the atmosphere to be on the Kent campus when you first arrived that first fall?

[Marc Miller]: It was different for me. I had always lived at home, and once I got to Kent State, I felt comfortable there. It was nice and friendly and I enjoyed it and it was a great experience.

[Interviewer]: That first fall, and those first couple of years, was there much protest activity, and if so, did you have much to do with that?

[Marc Miller]: I know that at that time, I can remember the Student Union, not being where it is today, but in a small building--I don't even remember the name of it--but I remember listening to music that they had piped out--Buffalo Springfield--very specifically remember listening to them. And SDS and the Weathermen organizations were posting things around campus. I was curious and I don't remember if I actually ever attended any meetings but I was aware that there were some groups out there that were protesting the Vietnam conflict. I was, I believe at that time, against the war. I didn't think it was right, but as I aged, and looking back, you know, I certainly have mixed feelings about everything. But the campus was not tense, I don't believe, during those first couple of years. Like I say, the SDS and the Weathermen organizations were I know doing meetings on campus.

[Interviewer]: Can you remember when you felt--or perhaps it didn't happen until very close to May four--can you remember when it seemed to be becoming a stronger thing where more students were involved in these kinds of things here at Kent?

[Marc Miller]: Specifically, I cannot. I do remember that when President Nixon would speak that things, activities, seemed to pick up, when he had a speech coming up. I'm trying to remember exactly what happened previous to May four as far as protests. I know that Abbie Hoffman I believe came to the campus and I believe I might even have some old pictures of Abbie Hoffman and some of the people that spoke at Kent State, but that might have been closer to the 1970 issue.

But I do remember specifically the night that the first draft lottery was on television and they were drawing numbers, and every time they'd draw a number, the guys in Johnson Hall, I'd hear screaming and jeers and cursing. I ended up with a very low number. I think my number was number 130, so I was in there for that first draft to go to Vietnam which, again, terrified me. I went home on the weekend of that first draft and I actually put my name in to be a part of the United States Army Reserves in Toledo, Ohio.

[Interviewer]: What came of that?

[Marc Miller]: That's an interesting story actually also. I didn't pull the correspondence out, but I have it. I was told that there was a huge waiting list to become a member of the Army Reserves, again, because of people not wanting to be drafted into the army and go to Vietnam. At that time, I was in education, and I was planning on getting married, which would have been about two weeks after I graduated from college. So I kept following up on my name on the list and was told that as my graduation date grew nearer that my name wasn't moving up very rapidly.

I actually wrote to my congressman at that time. I remember his last name was Ashley in Ohio, and I explained to him that I did not believe in the war and that I was going to be a teacher and I didn't want to get drafted. I was getting married and asked him if there was anything he could do to help me get into the Reserves. And he sent me a letter back, and again, I have this correspondence locked up telling me that he had no influence on helping me get into the Reserves. But lo and behold, I graduated from Kent in March of 1971, got married April 4, 1971, and while my wife and I were on our honeymoon, I got a letter from the army that my dad read to me over the phone that said I had to be back by a date in May--and I don't really remember what it was, I'd have to look it up--that I was going to be sworn into the Reserves.

So I'm convinced that even though the congressman actually told me he couldn't help me, that he actually did do something. Maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part, but I did end up getting into the Army Reserves and not having to serve in Vietnam, because as soon as I graduated from Kent State, I was reclassified 1A, I remember that very specifically.

[Interviewer]: That's actually all very good stuff. Well why don't we turn our attention to the May four period. Maybe you could tell me a little bit about your experiences here from the day of Nixon's speech, April thirtieth, and just tell the story of the weekend as you lived it through May four.

[Marc Miller]: Well, again, it's interesting because I was taking a class, an art class in fact, at Kent State--I don't remember if it was Art 101, or whatever it was--but we actually had a trip that weekend previous to May fourth to go to Washington D.C. I believe it was, and visit some museums there and so I went on that trip and my fiancée at the time was still at Kent State.

So I went on that trip and while I was in Washington, she called me, or I had called her one evening, and I had seen on the news that there were things going on at Kent State. In fact, she told me on that Sunday night, I believe it was--we were going to be leaving and coming back to Kent on that Sunday night--that there was a lot of protesting going on at the university, and that some of it was getting violent and that in fact the ROTC building had been set on fire and Martial Law had been declared and that the National Guard was actually stationed on campus, and that when the buses pulled in, they weren't even allowed to take us back to our dormitories. We had to disembark, I guess you'd call it, from the buses out at the main campus, near the Administration Building, it might have even been out on the main street, and had to walk with our luggage all the way back to our dormitories. And again, I was at Johnson Hall at that time. It was very scary to see jeeps and tanks and military ambulances with the big red cross on the side of the green vehicle. It was a very scary time.

And you could smell the smoke from the fire. Again, I was at Johnson Hall, and the ROTC buildings at that time were just across from Johnson Hall in some wooden buildings across The Commons that you could see from my room. My room faced The Commons. I'm thinking it was Room 212, but I don't really remember, or 201, but I could see from my window overlooking The Commons, where the ROTC building had once stood.

So it was very tense, and in fact, that Sunday night, there were guys in Johnson Hall, because the National Guard was stationed on the hill between Johnson Hall and the architecture building--Taylor Hall I think was the name of it?

[Interviewer]: Yes.

[Marc Miller]: And the National Guardsmen were standing on that hill every so many feet or yards, and guys in Johnson Hall were throwing water balloons out the window at these Guardsmen, and I was going around and asking them not to do anything that might provoke them, because we didn't know what their orders were or what might happen. We just knew that it was Martial Law on campus. We weren't supposed to come out of our dormitories.

In fact, I remember, again, another strange incident. One of the guys from Johnson Hall actually took off his clothes and streaked across that area while there were helicopters flying around with their spotlights, so I don't know if that's the first incidence of streaking ever before it became very popular, but I remember that incident also. So it was very tense in Johnson Hall and around the campus.

In fact, and I'm jumping ahead, don't know if you want me to do this yet, but I had classes scheduled for May fourth and there were flyers being handed out, and since I had been up all evening trying to keep some kind of peace in the building, I called one of my professors and actually said I wasn't going to be coming to class that day because I had no sleep and I just wouldn't feel right going to class. And I know that there were flyers being handed out saying that there was going to be a big rally at noon on May fourth. And again, those were flyers that were posted around campus and also handed out. So I skipped class on Monday, May fourth.

[Interviewer]: So tell me then what took place on May four in your life?

[Marc Miller]: Well, at noon, that this rally was going to take place right outside of Johnson Hall in The Commons area there. People were gathering. It's actually giving me chills to think about what happened. I was standing out more on the Taylor Hall side, not on The Commons side, I was walking around and the Guardsmen were stationed in various places around Johnson Hall and Taylor Hall and out towards the practice field even, I believe there were Guardsmen walking around.

Kids started throwing some rocks and bottles at the Guardsmen and I was pretty much a pacifist. I didn't want to get involved in the physical confrontations that were taking place. I had talked to some of the Guardsmen previously who were stationed around Johnson Hall and just asked them about what was going with them and they seemed to be, you know, respondent, but they weren't what I would call super friendly. All of a sudden when these kids started throwing these rocks and empty bottles and things, the Guardsmen all of a sudden, I heard and saw Guardsmen firing their weapons and being the chicken that I was, I remember running. As I saw people falling down, and other people saying, They're not real bullets. They're rubber bullets, quit running away.

But I ran through--it was either Lake or Olson Hall--all the way around the back into Johnson Hall because our dormitory was across from Lake and Olson Hall, I believe, and I ran upstairs to my room and I can remember Walter Cronkite on TV talking about the violence that was taking place at Kent State. And going down to the end of the hall that was actually overlooking the sidewalk between Johnson Hall and Taylor Hall and seeing the young man laying on the sidewalk in some sort of agony. Obviously, he had been shot. It was a very tense time.

The reports on television did not match what was actually going on on the campus. They seemed to exaggerate a lot of the activity. From my point of view, the students were rowdy and disruptive, but in no way were doing anything that would provoke somebody to fire a weapon indiscriminately into a crowd of hundreds, if not thousands, of kids. I mean, they didn't aim at anything. They just fired their weapons and unfortunately some kids died as well as were wounded. In fact, being a speech major, Sandy Schroeder [Scheuer] was in some of my speech classes and was one of the young ladies that ended up dying in that shooting.

[Interviewer]: Where were you, if I may ask, and I don't mean to make you repeat, but where were you exactly, can you describe where you were when they fired?

[Marc Miller]: I was toward the practice field. I was looking up at Taylor Hall, so I could see the sculpture and the Guardsmen at the top of that hill, but I was down towards the--I believe it was the practice football field at the time--in between there, close enough to Lake Hall to be able to run to the door that went into Lake Hall and down their hallway and out the other door that was closest to Johnson Hall, but again, I don't remember if it was Lake and Olson, I believe, but I ran when the shooting began and I started to see people fall down. I had never really heard gunfire like that before and at first, I thought, well maybe it was firecrackers, but then I saw smoke coming from these weapons, and people falling down and I knew I needed to get out of there.

And, like I said, I ran through the dormitory, down the hall and out the other door that was closest to Johnson Hall, went into Johnson Hall through one of the side entrances, I believe down at the far end. My room overlooked the main entrance to Johnson Hall and The Commons area. In fact, I have some pictures looking out of my window at The Commons area during various times when different rallies were going on down on The Commons. But yeah, I ran through Lake Hall. Again, I can't remember specifically, but I was close enough to the entrance to the women's dormitory, the girl's dormitory, to run through there after the shooting started and get back to Johnson Hall to be able to look out the window and to see what was going on on the hill.

[Interviewer]: Did you end up going back outside after that?

[Marc Miller]: Hours later, actually. Again, the sequence of events, I may have confusions--we're talking about forty years ago or so--but I remember the announcements were made that Martial Law was still in effect and that the campus was going to be closed and that everybody had to be off campus by five PM.

I had been taking the bus from Kent State to Toledo when I wanted to go home on weekends for the first couple of years, but by this time, it was the middle of my junior year, I believe, and my parents bought me an early graduation present which was a car, so I had a car on campus and we packed up some things in the car. In fact, I had a boa constrictor as a pet that I had all through college. In fact, I had it for thirty-five years, for many years after I graduated, and the housekeeping people in Johnson Hall knew me, knew that I had the snake, and I left the snake in my room and asked that they keep an eye on it and not let anything happen to it while I was gone. We weren't sure how long the campus was going to be closed.

But after it was announced that we had to leave campus, my fiancée and I--and her name was Judy--gathered up what belongings we needed to take home with us. I think we asked some other people if they needed rides and I don't remember if anybody said yes or no. But we walked around the campus a little bit in between the time that everybody was told to leave and five PM. And I walked up on the hill and looked at some bloodstains on the sidewalk. I have pictures of that. I took a picture of the bullet hole in the sculpture next to Taylor Hall. I have pictures of that.

And as I was walking over the hill near that sculpture. I found a shell casing, which I believe, and looking back, was I believe a forty-five caliber shell casing. And I guess being a kid, I was twenty years old I guess, I thought, What a great souvenir this is. So I took that shell casing. Didn't tell anybody about it, except, of course, Judy, and put that shell casing in my pocket and went home with it. But we got off the campus and drove from Kent back to Toledo that afternoon and probably left campus between five and six.

I had walked around. I took some pictures of a Volkswagon that had been parked over towards the practice field that the windows had been shot out of and like I said, I have some pictures, in fact, I had left a roll of film in my room at Kent State which, when I got back, was gone. I was told that the FBI or the sheriff's department or whoever, the highway patrol, had searched the rooms in the dormitory. In fact, they wanted to take the snake and the housekeeping people I guess who let these officials in told them no, that they knew who that snake belonged to and the snake was still in my room when we got back to campus. Because I went to summer school and some of the classes that I took--one was a photography class that I was taking with Charles Brill, I remember. And I had a friend in Toledo who had a darkroom. And he let me use his darkroom to develop some of my pictures, and they were pictures of Kent State. I ended up passing that class. I think I ended up getting an A in it, but because we weren't allowed back on campus, we were allowed to complete some of our courses through correspondence. I finished my photography class at home in Toledo before we were allowed to come back on campus and go to summer school.

[Interviewer]: So you were back among probably the earliest students to return to campus, it sounds like.

[Marc Miller]: I was. I was. The campus at that time was--the only word that comes to my mouth was kind of like a ghost town. The students were few and far between, but I did attend summer school because I was looking forward to being able to graduate that next year because I had these plans of getting married, like I said, in April, and I graduated in March, so I was on campus for that first summer session after the May fourth incident.

[Interviewer]: Do you remember--you spoke, I believe, with some authorities regarding a number of things such as your own account of things but also about that shell casing you found. Can you tell me about that?

[Marc Miller]: Well, I was interviewed on campus by some people. I honestly don't remember who that was, but at the time that I was interviewed on campus, I never brought up that shell casing to anybody. I guess I was being pretty sneaky about it, not wanting to have to give up that souvenir, which, I thought, Well, this is going to be a part of history, and so I kept that shell casing.

In fact, President White, and I have pictures of that also--I was living off-campus the following year, 1971, and I have pictures of President White that came to that off-campus housing and sat down with the students living there and had a question and answer period.

But I know I'm kind of jumping around here. To get more specifically to that shell casing. I got sworn into the Army Reserves, I got married, got into the Reserves, and actually read a newspaper clipping in the Toledo Blade at the time, and we're probably talking about 1973, I'm thinking, about an officer or a Guardsman and the firing of a forty-five caliber pistol, and being that it was denied that a pistol had ever been fired at the time. And that kind of got my ears perked up and I said I knew that was a lie because I had a shell casing from right where those Guardsmen were standing, and I guess I kind of got scared and said, I better do something because maybe this will be significant, because at that time, the Guardsmen were on trial up in Cleveland.

So I called the local FBI unit in Toledo, Ohio. And I was selling life insurance at the time, in a building, in an office building in Toledo, and there was a Howard Johnson's right across the parking lot. And when I called the FBI and told them what I had and how it came about and this newspaper article, they agreed to meet with me in the parking lot and then go over to Howard Johnson's. So we made an appointment, and I remember the agent's name was Larry Paul, and they met me in the parking lot in Toledo, and they had a blue American Motors car, I mean, very indiscreet looking thing. And so I met with them and I showed them this shell casing and we went in. They asked if I wanted to go in to Howard Johnson's to have lunch or a cup of coffee with them, and I don't remember the other agent's name, but there were two agents, I believe.

But I showed him the shell casing and he asked if he could have it, and I said, "Well, sure. Can you give me sort kind of a receipt that I have proof that I turned this over to you?" And he said, "Yes."

And he handwrote on a little scrap of paper that I had given this shell casing to him and he said, "Do you want to make some kind of a marking on this shell casing so that it can be identified later on if you want it returned?"--which is what I asked for. So I took out a nail clipper that had a little file in it, and I scratched my initials on the inside of this shell casing and then turned it over to the FBI.

[Interviewer]: Did they ever return it to you?

[Marc Miller]: They did not, and here's where I think the story gets intriguing, and you'll probably wonder why there was such a big lapse in time and I can't answer what it was that sparked my interest again, but in fact, while I was in the Army Reserves, during one of our two week summer active duty assignments, I was contacted by an attorney who asked me if I would be able to testify at the hearings in Cleveland if it was deemed necessary. And I said, "Sure, you would just need to let me know."

But I didn't get the shell casing back at that time, but I have a letter here dated December 20, 1973, and I'll read it to you. It says:

"Marc, While in Cleveland yesterday, I inquired concerning the Kent Grand Jury proceedings. I was informed that the duration would probably be from six to eight weeks. It was requested to return all the photos and negatives to you and point out that we'd like to retain the shell casing for a time longer. The value of the shell casing is not known at this time, nor is it known whether you may be called. I suspect it unlikely, but you never know. So here are the photos, Marc, and I'll return the shell casing to you as soon as it's no longer needed. Thanks again. Regards, Larry Paul."

Signed by Larry Paul, and then underneath, it's typed out: Larry Paul, Special Agent, FBI, Toledo, and that's from 1973.

So, we're going to jump ahead twenty years.

[Interviewer]: Okay.

[Marc Miller]: I have a letter dated here, June 10, 1995 and this letter is addressed to the United States Department of Justice, FBI, 3005 Federal Office Building, Cleveland, Ohio. Regarding Larry Paul, Special Agent, FBI, Toledo:

"To whom it may concern. I realize the Kent State Grand Jury proceedings ended many years ago. In fact, it's been twenty-five years since the May fourth incident at Kent State University. I am writing at this time to ask for the return of the forty-five caliber shell casing that I turned in to Special Agent Larry Paul as evidence. As you can see from the enclosed memo from Special Agent Larry Paul from the Toledo office, he advised me that at the conclusion of the proceedings, the shell casing would be returned to me. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Sincerely, Marc E. Miller."

Now, I did send that correspondence certified mail, and it was signed for by someone at the FBI office on June 16, 1995, so ten days after I mailed my letter, it was signed for, in fact, I mailed the letter June twelfth, the letter was dated the sixth, I mailed it the twelfth, and it was signed for on June sixteenth. So, I didn't hear anything back at that time from anybody which, to me, was kind of strange. They didn't acknowledge that letter.

So, I wrote to George Brown--now we're jumping ahead another year. Now it's June 15, 1996 and here's a letter I will read to you that I sent to Congressman Brown. It says:

"Dear Congressman Brown, I am writing to you to ask for your assistance in putting a matter of mine to rest after twenty-six years. I was witness to the shootings at Kent State University on May 4, 1970. I found a forty-five caliber shell casing that I turned in to the FBI as evidence for the hearing. As of today, I still don't have the shell casing, and I will love to have it back. Please see the enclosed information. You will notice a return receipt dated June 16, 1995. I never received a reply of any kind and haven't heard a word from the FBI since I got that back from the post office. My wish would be a close to all of this after all of these years. At least some reply from the FBI would have been courteous. I inscribed an identifying mark on the inside of the casing in front of Agent Larry Paul so I will recognize it if it is the one that I turned in. Thank you in advance and for your time and this trouble in the matter for me. Sincerely, Marc E. Miller."

Okay, that's dated June 15, 1996. June 26, 1996, here is a letter that I received that was forwarded to me. This is from Congressman George Brown. It says:

"Dear Mr. Miller: Thank you for contacting my office for assistance. I am enclosing a letter of the letter I sent on your behalf to the Federal Bureau of Investigation. As soon as I receive a response, I will contact you."

And here's the letter that Congressman Brown wrote to the FBI. It's addressed to Mr. John E. Collingwood, Inspector in Charge, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Ninth and Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest, Washington D.C. Zip code 20535, Regarding Marc E. Miller:

" Dear Mr .Collingwood, I am writing on behalf of Mr. Miller concerning the Kent State Shootings. Mr. Miller states that he was a witness to the Kent State University Shootings on May 4, 1970. Mr. Miller says that he found a forty-five caliber shell casing and turned it in to the Bureau. Mr. Miller was told by Special Agent Larry Paul that the shell casing would eventually be returned to him when it was no longer needed. Mr. Miller says that he was never contacted by the FBI regarding this casing. I'm enclosing Mr. Miller's letter and documents pertaining to the matter and I'm requesting any information that you could give Mr. Miller regarding the possible return of the shell casing to him. Please respond to me through Betty L. Elliot at my Colton District Office. Sincerely, George E. Brown, Junior, Member of Congress."

Here's a--moving on--a letter from the FBI from John Collingwood, dated August 7, 1996, Most honorable George E. Brown, Junior, Member of Congress, 657 North La Cadena Drive, Colton, California:

"Dear Congressman Brown, This is in response to your June 26th inquiry, on behalf of Mr. Miller who requested your assistance in having returned to him a forty-five caliber shell casing he found on the Kent State University campus following the shootings in 1970. He stated he gave the casing to an FBI Agent who advised it would be returned when it was no longer needed as evidence"

I love this part: "Special Agent Larry Paul transferred from the Toledo resident agency Cleveland office many years ago and is subsequently retired from the FBI. In response to your inquiry, however, our Cleveland office reviewed appropriate records pertaining to the incident at Kent State University and was unable to locate any record of the forty-five caliber shell casing in question. I can tell you, however, that since this incident took place more than twenty-five years ago, all of the shell casings maintained as evidence in this case have been destroyed. I regret we are unable to locate the shell casing but hope this information will be helpful to you in responding to Mr. Miller. Sincerely yours, John E. Collingwood, Inspector in Charge, Office of Public and Congressional Affairs."

And it's signed by Margaret R. Owens, Unit Chief.

My one other letter dated August the twentieth, and again, this is from Congressman Brown:

"Dear Mr. Miller, I am enclosing a copy of the letter recently received from the Federal Bureau of Investigation regarding my inquiry on your behalf. I regret the response is not favorable. Please do not hesitate to contact my office if you have any questions, or if I can be of assistance regarding any other federal matter. Sincerely, George E. Brown, Junior, Member of Congress."

And that's my story, Steve, and I'm sticking to it. I don't have any proof, other than what I read to you, but that's a cover up. The FBI claims they never had the shell casing, and as we all know, the Guardsmen, none of them were ever charged with any kind of a crime. They all got off scot-free, and in my estimation, I found proof a forty-five caliber pistol was fired and the FBI claims they don't really know anything about that, that they have no records, so that's why, after all these years, I've proceeded to contact various people about this. In fact, I got ahold of Alan Canfora several years ago and read all this to him and he was interested. I know he's written books about the Kent State University incident, and in fact, I had correspondence from him in an email that he's interested in seeing the pictures that I had from Johnson Hall.

So, in any event, I don't have the shell casing. I apparently never will have the shell casing, and according to the FBI, they never had the shell casing either, even though I have the proof and written documentation from that Special Agent, that he took it from me at my request and that he would see that I got it back.

[Interviewer]: Well, usually our last question is asking you whether since May 4, 1970, whether your views changed about what happened. I guess in some ways, the story you just told answers that. Do you have anything else to say about that? How your views have changed or not changed over the years?

[Marc Miller]: At the time that that incident happened, it was pure chaos, but since that time, not only do I believe it was pure chaos, but I believe that the government covered something up. I believe that kids were murdered. I believe that, with the technology that we supposedly have, or may have had at that time, they would have been able to determine which rifles those bullets came from and the students that were hit, killed, and injured, that they would be able to determine exactly who fired the weapon. I know I've read articles since the time of this forty-five caliber incident, and there were people saying that there was a thirty caliber pistol fired by a student or somebody on campus that shouldn't have been there, but my opinion is that justice was not served. That kids died and were wounded, some wounded to the point of being confined to a wheelchair for their lives because of this and that the ball was dropped. Somebody should have been held accountable for this and it was whitewashed over, and the full story was never brought out. And in fact, I want no recognition at all, but I believe that this correspondence that I have, and my story about the forty-five caliber shell casing is further proof, in fact, that the government denied they ever had it, just tends to make me believe that there are a lot of lies that were told and a cover up that will never really be fully understood.

[Interviewer]: Well, that's exactly the sort of testimony that we hope to get in these interviews. I don't have other questions for you. I wondered though, during the time that you were talking, is there anything else you wanted to say that I failed to ask you about?

[Marc Miller]: Not that I can think of, Steve. I appreciate you taking the time to call me, to listen to me ramble on about this, because obviously it's been years since this took place--what, forty-one years now--and it still eats away at me. I still wonder what truly happened that day. I truly wonder what happened to that shell casing and what happened to Agent Larry Paul and I think that it's one of those mysteries that I see maybe never answered. We know about assassinations of presidents and things that have been kept locked away and will be kept locked away for a hundred years. This certainly is not as profound as the assassination of President Kennedy, but I do believe that there's a story here and the government doesn't want to know about it.

[Interviewer]: Well, we certainly appreciate your candid description of these events and the very, very good description of your attempts to get this piece of history back. I think what I'll do now is conclude the recorded interview, but I'd like to continue talking to you for a few minutes after that. So with your permission, I'll thank you for it and I'll turn off the tape recorder.

[Marc Miller]: That's fine. Thank you very much, Stephen.

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