Napoleon Peoples, Oral History

Recorded: May 3, 2015
Interviewed by Lae'l Hughes-Watkins
Transcribed by the Kent State University Research and Evaluation Bureau

Note: This transcript includes geo-references to locations that are discussed in the oral history. Geographical names linked in the transcript will open in a new window or tab that takes you to that location information and map in the Mapping May 4 project. To request a transcript without geo-reference links included, please contact Kent State University Special Collections & Archives.

[Interviewer]: Good afternoon, this is Lae’l Hughes-Watkins, Speaking on May 3, 2015 at Kent State University Special Collections and Archives as part of the May 4 Oral History project. I will be talking with Dr. Napoleon Peoples.

[Napoleon Peoples]: Thank you. Let me preface this by saying that my comments are based on, you know, trying to remember 45 years, and my hope is that what I say is accurate to the best of my ability in terms of what I remember, okay?

[Interviewer]: I think you’ll do just fine.

[Napoleon Peoples]: Thank you.

[Interviewer]: I would like to begin with a few biographical questions. First, where were you born?

[Napoleon Peoples]: I was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

[Interviewer]: And where did you grow up?

[Napoleon Peoples]: I grew up in Chester, Pennsylvania and attended the public schools in Chester.

[Interviewer]: Oh, okay. So then what brought you to Kent State University and when?

[Napoleon Peoples]: Well, I went to Kent-- how I got to Kent State, I was at Wilberforce University majoring in psychology and, I really hadn’t thought about graduate school. You know, I’m a first family college. I hadn’t thought about graduate school and one of my classmates who had graduated, her name is Jackie Knighten, from Chicago, and I really thank her for this because she is the genesis for me and the other students from Wilberforce coming to Kent. She came back and it was late in the spring and she said “would you like to go to Kent State in the department of rehabilitation counseling? I know how you can get in if you make application, we can see if we can facilitate that.” And so, I thought about it because I didn’t have other options. I mean, I was looking for jobs so I was like, “Let me apply to Kent State.” I had heard a little bit, but not much about Kent and I applied to Kent State in the Rehabilitation Counseling program, and that’s how I made a connection with Kent State.

[Interviewer]: So what year was that?

[Napoleon Peoples]: 1968, I’m, sorry, I’m sorry-- yeah, 1968, 1968 when I graduated.

[Interviewer]: So then, what was your official major?

[Napoleon Peoples]: When I came to Kent it was Rehabilitation Counseling, and what really was important was that I met the person who was in charge of rehabilitation, Milton E. Wilson, who was a professor here. I really, really felt a connection with Dr. Wilson and the staff here. I was pleased to come to Kent, yeah.

[Interviewer]: So you came to Kent in ’68, so that was from my knowledge, kind of at the height with the respect with to Black United Students. It kind of just started or was about to start up.

[Napoleon Peoples]: Yes.

[Interviewer]: So then it had to be, from that perspective, pretty active on campus with their protests and the additional--

[Napoleon Peoples]: Sure, sure. It was an interesting time because a lot of things were happening around the country in terms of race relationships and when I came here, you know-- as a matter of fact, Dr. Wilson was very involved in dealing with areas looking at race relations and all that. He subsequently became the dean for Human Relations, but he was looking at race relations and civil obedience and people coming together and trying to bring people together. So, when I got here, I was pretty rather excited and my first job was in the residence halls over at Beall-McDowell Hall. I was a graduate counselor over at McDowell Hall.

[Interviewer]: So I have no idea what graduate counselor does in Beall Hall.

[Napoleon Peoples]: In McDowell Hall?

[Interviewer]: McDowell, I am sorry.

[Napoleon Peoples]: Graduate counselors, basically-- when I got there, I was told what we were doing. I was pretty excited because I thought of the counselor part, the rehabilitation counselor, counselor, counselor, part of me was like, wow, this is really good and it fit. It fit to some extent-- graduate counselors basically dealt with the students. You know, we were given the floor hours on the third floor. I had 64 males and my job was to maintain some sort of community up there and get students to work together in effective ways. Sort of take care of the hall or at least the third floor with regard to not have any of these young men destroy the floor, but it was a wonderful, wonderful experience. A wonderful job. I spent, I think, two years as a graduate counselor, but it was a very, very good experience.

[Interviewer]: If you can, can you recall some of the activities you put together for the students?

[Napoleon Peoples]: On the floor-- the first thing I tried to do was get students to understand that that I’m not there as a villain. I’m not there to cause negative consequences for them. I was there to help them grow as students and young men with regard to if they need to talk to me about issues, I could talk to them about issues. I was there to help sort of keep them on the right path. Because, you know, you know how students are, right? You know, alcohol and going out dating and all those things, and a lot of them, once they got to know me, they began to confide in me and they began to ask questions. They knew I was a counselor so they thought I was-- I don’t know what type of counselor they thought I was, but they would ask questions and I would refer them because, you know, part of it is if you see a person struggling-- I mean, they have a counseling service so you could refer students to appropriate services on campus. We had to do that. I and other staff members in McDowell, you know, were very good at trying to help these students move to the next level in terms of their development, but we were very close to the women who worked, the graduate counselors over in Beall-- so it was almost like a unified set--

[Interviewer]: So, it was a big dorm?

[Napoleon Peoples]: Yeah-- no, Beall-- McDowell was for males and Beall was for females and it was connected by I don’t know what-- it was connected and there was a place where students could hang out downstairs, and we had a cafeteria in the building. So you really didn’t have to come out for anything except to go to classes and maybe work out or whatever you were doing on campus. So it was self-contained, but we worked collaboratively both Beall, males and females in McDowell-- I mean, McDowell males and Beall females. We worked like a team sort of. So it was really good. I enjoyed that experience.

[Interviewer]: So at that time, what, if you can recall, what were some of the challenges that seemed to be the students were addressing or might have come--

[Napoleon Peoples]: Well at that time, basic things that students go through the development issues they face students. Becoming who they are, 17, 18 year old students, you know. They were trying to, you know, getting to the university, trying to find out where things are located and who people are and how they fit and what was going on around them in terms of the world and social development. And as an African American male, it was challenging to the extent that a lot of the white males on my floor had never been in a situation or even interacted with an African American male and my challenges were a little different because I had to get them to understand who I was and, and how I how I was going to interact with them and keeping in mind that race relations, as I said, was at its height in terms of the negativity. So I’m sure many of them had stereotypes of all kinds of other things going on, but after they began to interact. After I got into the community, after I began to work with them closely, all that seemed to, you know, go away because they would come to my office and talk-- not all of them, you know, but for the most part, a lot of them would come in and they would talk about stuff, they would laugh, you know, they would tell jokes and laugh with me and I would have as other counselors would, I would have hall meetings and those were really interesting, getting these students to come to a hall meeting, but for me, after awhile, I noticed the numbers continued to increase and I began to get a sense, you know, these students, you know, really wanted to hear what we were going to talk about. As a matter of fact, we had a bulletin board, every floor had a bulletin board and so after I was there for a while, I made assignments and got them involved in the bulletin board project and they would take care of the bulletin board because everybody would have like, a month. So we would set up these teams and they would go in and they would set up the bulletin board. I think there was probably some, I don’t know if it was jealousy or whether it is just natural for guys on the other floor to see this bulletin board because you would open the door-- one day I came back and somebody had damaged the board and the guys on the floor-- what happened instead of that making them not have feelings or understanding, they rallied around that bulletin board so that drew them-- so that made them even closer. Made them closer and it made my relationship with them even easier because then we became a unit.

[Interviewer]: Wow.

[Napoleon Peoples]: So it was fun for me to interact with them and to share who I was and fit it into that whole process of being a graduate counselor, so it was fun.

[Interviewer]: So when thinking about that, you’re working with all of those young minds, were the students in that dorm politically active, were you politically active?

[Napoleon Peoples]: You know, I couldn’t help but be politically active, you know? With all of the strife that was going on, and when I say active I mean going out and working with or interacting with the Black United Students. They were basically undergraduate students and they, of course, on campus, you know, they saw me as an extension of an advisor or something. You know, not officially, but just a person they could talk to that was older, a graduate student, but I was on top of that. I mean, you know, watching what was happening, being politically aware of what was going on, but when it was all over, I still had to come to that third floor in McDowell hall and interact with these students and their process, or developmental process in terms of political activism, I didn’t hear it as much, I heard more young guys trying to become more and understand who they were at the time, but it just didn’t stop there because in-- I can remember several incidents where I had to go to other floors and interact with those guys. I didn’t know them as well, but if their graduate counselor was out, or if something was happening downstairs and the resident director was not there they would call us on the phone and say, Can you come down and help resolve this, can you help do this, can you help do that, and for some reason, they wanted me to come down a lot. There were a few of us they looked upon more than others, but they wanted us to come down a lot. So I got a chance to really feel the depth and breadth of these students and what they were going through at the university as young people even though I was a graduate counselor, so I wasn’t that much older than they were, but I’m saying it was an experience.

[Interviewer]: So was your family aware of the protest regarding Vietnam and the anti-war sentiment that was going on at Kent State that they shared their concerns with you?

[Napoleon Peoples]: No, I never had that. I mean, I never had that-- the social situation was a little, well, the communication systems were a little different, because you had a telephone and you had to mail. You didn’t have email and Instagram and--

[Interviewer]: Twitter

[Napoleon Peoples]: --Twitter and all that, but, you know, when I would send a letter or I would call they would-- my mom in particular would say, “You know, I saw on CBS,” and she would talk about stuff that was happening around the country, but I don’t think they were aware of what was going on here because really, it wasn’t really a lot going on. I mean, at the early stages I think. It was a lot-- it was the Black United Students were involved in stuff, but the war was going on and of course everybody talked about the war and what was going on in Vietnam. I think more African Americans in terms of the numbers that were there and were dying, you know, because the, you know, community seemed to be small. So if someone died across the country, they had an uncle there or a relative or somebody that would share that information about what was going on across the country, but, yeah.

[Interviewer]: In some of the reports, I don’t know if, you know, or remember, Milt Wilson’s report, “Two Year’s Involvement.”

[Napoleon Peoples]: I do, I have that-- because that is my advisor.

[Interviewer]: Advisor.

[Napoleon Peoples]: Yeah, I have that.

[Interviewer]: So do you recall in that report there is at least, to my understanding, there seemed to be the African American students on campus, they were fighting for their civil rights--

[Napoleon Peoples]: They were.

[Interviewer]: -- And not to say they weren’t concerned about the Vietnam War, but would you also agree that there was maybe not a disconnect but maybe it was more like, we’re fighting this war and while the Vietnam War is important, we are worried about our rights here.

[Napoleon Peoples]: Yeah, yeah. I think that was the umbrella for African Americans. It was about racism and how do we have parity in this society that seems to be racist or that has standards that appear to be based around race that are not equal and so the students here, yeah, they were, we were, we had a couple things going on because you had these groups out talking about self-determination and what we were about and what we were going to do with that, and then you had a war out there going on where it appeared that African Americans would be drawn into that war. I don’t know how to put this, but they were in the war and they were dying at high rates. So you were over there dying at high rates, at home you had this, this social movement going on with racism and there was a real disconnect in that. So I think students were looking for parity. I think they were rightfully so trying to bring about change, and that’s what I saw.

[Interviewer]: Can you recall your experiences during the period, April 30th leading up to May 4? So that would have been that, you know --

[Napoleon Peoples]: Oh, yeah. You mean-- are you saying when they burned the ROTC building or before--

[Interviewer]: --That weekend.

[Napoleon Peoples]: --Or before that?

[Interviewer]: Whatever-- wherever you want to start.

[Napoleon Peoples]: Okay. Well, I noticed there was lots of heightened interests in this war and people were talking about it. I saw students who were getting involved-- I thought they were getting involved, some of the students I met, just because it was just something to get involved in. I don’t think they understood the full depth at that point of what that war meant. I mean, if you turn on TV or you see casually-- you would see all of these stories-- Cronkite-- all these people were reporting about the Vietnam. Everybody was talking about the war. Looking at people just dying, you know, and I think a lot of males were afraid, you know, I’m going to get drafted, I’m going to war and it’s going to happen to me. So there was lots of angst, lots of uncertainty. I use that in terms of Vietnam and that whole war piece. On campus, as students began to facilitate this effort to end the war, I do remember that the students, the majority of students wanted the Black United Students to get involved and they’d say, Nah, nah, nah, we’re not-- that’s not our issue, we’re not getting involved. I don’t know that it was not our issue, but we’re not getting involved in that, we have other things we need to be involved in, and so the students who were the majority students who were here who were demonstrating or wanted to put on-- continue the protests. I didn’t see a lot of African American students involved in that, you know, I didn’t see it. I think there were a few out there, but for the most part, there was an effort not to get involved in that whole Kent State ROTC process.

[Interviewer]: But do you remember hearing or were you nearby when the ROTC building burned down and hearing about that?

[Napoleon Peoples]: I can’t tell you where I was. I remember that vividly. I remember the building burning. I remember all that stuff. It would’ve been perfect if I had been interviewed 15 years ago, but I remember that building burning. I remember leading up to that, I remember all the demonstrations, you know, what is really interesting to me is as they were protesting, they would go across campus, you know, and the crowds would get a lot bigger because they would go past the residence halls and the dorms and the crowds would get larger, and larger, and larger and they would look like. You know, how students, people are curious?

[Interviewer]: Yes.

[Napoleon Peoples]: I think a lot of students got involved because they were curious and then pretty soon I think it probably became fun. You know, but the crowds were larger, but I saw a lot of curious people because as they went past our dorm people would go, Aw, we going out, we are going to protest. That was the early part of this and so the crowds got larger, and larger every night they were larger and larger and then I think it’s Water Street downtown and they had the demonstrations down there and they were burning the trash cans and stuff. If my memory is correct, it was trash cans and stuff and the supports and the citizens were concerned, the citizens of Kent that these students were rabble rousers and they were bringing, you know, they were infighting all this stuff and a lot of people were concerned about that group-- Students for a Democratic Society and the under--if I remember correctly, the Underground Weathermen or something which was a more, I guess, which was a more intense group coming in and infighting, but it just continued and continued and it continued and it continued until it led up to-- it didn’t lead up to, but it continued to where, you know, I guess people were saying we need to get control of this, and that was after the burning of the ROTC building.

[Interviewer]: Now, do you remember, and this was, again this is in conversation in learning about what were the days leading up to the shootings that members of Black United Students once the National Guard got on campus, that they were informing students, specifically the other African American students, don’t go out there. They have real bullets, we’ll be the first ones shot--

[Napoleon Peoples]: I didn’t, I didn’t hear that--

[Interviewer]: Okay.

[Napoleon Peoples]: --Statement, but I did understand that students were saying, let’s not get involved in this. If they, you know, come here, you know, we’re going to be the first because you begin to look at the climate in the country with what was happening with, you know, African Americans. So, if that were said, I didn’t know of that, but I did look at the behavior and students weren’t out there because it was, you know, I mean, things were happening. I remember there were rallies, I remember African American students having meetings and rallying around, you know, that whole issue, you know, parity and talking about what is going on around campus for us, you know, African American students, but these were undergrads. You have to remember, these are undergraduates in BUS [Black United Students] were doing that. Someone like myself as a graduate counselor, you know, and I’m still a student, but at the same time, you know, I wanted to find out what’s going on.

[Interviewer]: So let’s move up to the day, May 4. Where were you when the shootings actually took place?

[Napoleon Peoples]: What happened on that day? Well, I mean, we are leaving a lot out, but we are-- because up to that day-- I mean, it was crazy.

[Interviewer]: We can go back.

[Napoleon Peoples]: Okay, well it was crazy, really, it was crazy. I mean, students rallying the-- you’re talking about up to the-- ROTC building had burned up, the National Guard had arrived. I mean, it was electric out. It was crazy. They were trying to get students to, I guess, go inside. I don’t know what they were trying to do. I’ve never understood even today, but I remember those moments when we were trying as graduate counselors and other counselors across campus to get students to just calm down, you know, just come on in, but students weren’t hearing that. I mean, they were like, you know, we have a right, we’re going out there, no I’m not listing to you. So on and so forth. Let me see if I am getting this-- I want to put this sequentially. At the ROTC, no, let me just go back. At the ROTC, the soldiers, all these people came after the ROTC building burned. So you’re asking about May 4th so I want to get to that. When I was in the residence halls and these students were going around, I mean, when the army-- when the National Guard came, it was, there was tear gas and all types of stuff. I remember, I tried to get this-- I mean, I was out there and I was like, “Hey you guys have to stop” and this soldier came up and he looked at me and it was like, he wanted to stick me, you know? And so he shot tear gas into the dorm, and broke the door in the stairwell in McDowell because the door shattered and the tear gas went all up in the stairwell and I was like, all my guys are up there. So all of us were trying to tell the guys don’t go outside, don’t get involved. At the same time there were huge crowds outside. So this was-- and we were taking. Some people were taking pictures. So the students, and I remember this vividly-- the helicopter overhead had a big light, so they were directing people, I guess the National Guard, where to go and to cut off the students and the students ran under a clump of trees that were between Beall-McDowell and Tri-Towers. So the helicopter couldn’t see them. They couldn’t see the students, and so they didn’t know where the students went because they were just under the trees so you couldn’t see them. You could see them from the ground, but, couldn’t see, you know --

[Interviewer]: The Air

[Napoleon Peoples]: --I saw this fire, it looked like fire spinning out and coming down, I didn’t know what it was. I heard a “poof” and then I saw these fires things and I saw this smoke and what they were doing is dropping tear gas through the trees and so the tear gas went down and then the students, because they were there, they started fanning out from under the trees and it was chaotic. I mean, it was really-- it was crazy.

[Interviewer]: What day was that?

[Napoleon Peoples]: That was probably the day, a couple of days, even the day before or a couple days before the-- before May 4th because I was just amazed. It felt like I was in a war zone. It was so crazy. I mean, it felt like a war zone.

[Interviewer]: So how, so how was it in the residence hall then after that?

[Napoleon Peoples]: It was chaotic. I mean, students didn’t know what to do. I mean, we would have meetings and the resident director would get with us and we had two-- because I told you we had Beall-McDowell, and we were very active because most of us were real leaders-- I’ll tell you more about that later, but we were trying to figure out what are we going to do, we have to get these students, you know, calm them down. Get them back on track, but as you notice now, Kent has so many residence facilities. I mean, so many, I mean, so many students. People were just all over the place and it was very difficult to contain, and once they went outside it became like, that group behavior or group think or whatever, but I never saw the students being disruptive on campus. I never saw that, I didn’t see them throwing bricks and bottles and-- I didn’t see that, I just saw them protesting -- walking and the crowds getting bigger and bigger and when the National Guard came, they didn’t know what to do because I didn’t know what to do. You know, we had never been-- I had never been involved in anything like that nor had any of the staff. We just tried to get the students to come back, but when they-- that night, this particular night sticks in my mind. When I heard that glass break and I saw the tear gas go up in the stairwell and so I decided to go up into my floor and you could see it because it was coming down the hall. So really, it was forcing the students to come out because you had tear gas coming in-- the stairwell was supposed to be pretty safe, you know, but once you open that door, because, you know, you smell this stuff you open the door, it just goes right down the hall. So we were trying to get them to-- where could they go, you know. So a lot of them went downstairs in that area that connected the two buildings and tried to figure out-- because they were looking outside because we were real curious. I’m sure a lot were afraid during that time, because we were afraid.

[Interviewer]: Why do you suppose they were trying to draw the students out of the actual building?

[Napoleon Peoples]: They weren’t, they were trying to-- they were shooting tear gas-- that might had been inadvertent. They were trying to get students to break up the crowd, you know what I’m saying? Outside and it might be inadvertent that is just went over and broke the glass, but what that caused was students coming out or coming downstairs at least, but it was a lot of-- as I said, when you see group behavior like that, I had never seen like that and you have tear gas, where are you going to go? If you’re trying to disperse someone, where do you go? I mean, if you-- thousands, hundreds of thousands of people, where do you go? They didn’t know, so we were trying to “come back in, come in, come in” but at night time you can’t identify who’s out there and who’s not because students, you know, students from everywhere. Beall--McDowell, Allerton, this place that place, you know, all over the place, anyway --

[Interviewer]: Did you have to try to get any medical aid or--

[Napoleon Peoples]: I didn’t. I did not. I didn’t see anyone injured. I think there was one kid probably cut himself on the glass, may have cut himself, but I think another counselor probably took care of that, but no, we didn’t have any-- I didn’t have any, maybe others did. I didn’t have anyone, I didn’t see anyone really injured, you know, to that extent. I saw kids falling down, but, you know, I didn’t see them injured, no, no.

[Interviewer]: So with that happening, potentially the day before May 4, what was the morning--

[Napoleon Peoples]: Or, a couple days, I can’t get the days straight in terms of whether it was May 3rd , 2nd, 1st, but I know there was a lot of stuff going on in that short period of time.

[Interviewer]: So did your supervisors give any guidance to how to manage--

[Napoleon Peoples]: Well I think, you know, there was no manual for handling this and I think some of us who are in counseling programs tried to do the best we could, but there was no manual for handling this type of event and I think the university, they didn’t have a manual and see, as you have a hierarchical structure right on up to the president, what do you do? You tell them this, or you’re trying to figure it out. How do we contain these students, what do we do. I’m sure that must have been an interesting process with the president and his cabinet and the people below him. We were way down on the rung because we were way down, we were graduate counselors and so the communication didn’t come to me, it would go to the resident director, but then I’m sure the residence hall didn’t--, you know, they were trying to contain this, it was all over the place, it was everywhere. It is a big campus, you know, you had pockets of people, but I think that crowd as they went around to all of the residence facilities, as they’re walking, protesting, students would come out of their residence facilities and join the crowd and it would get bigger, and bigger, and bigger, and bigger. I do know there were a lot of students that were afraid, they were afraid about what was going to happen after they saw this and I remember there were students who were, and I’m just talking about one part of campus, but there were a lot of students on our part of the campus who-- I’m sure in other residence facilities, they were trying to get them to come back, but once you get that tight, you don’t know what to do. So there was no manual for this.

[Interviewer]: So is there anything--

[Napoleon Peoples]: And here’s the other thing, the other thing is that there were a lot of rumors. There were rumors all over the place. There were shootings here, there was this, the military-- it was all kinds of stuff, we had to-- what we had to do is keep the lid on the rumors. Did you hear-- no, we haven’t heard about this, you know, just come in, you know, we can talk, but we hadn’t heard about any of that.

[Interviewer]: So I’ll go back to your bulletin board, were you using that to help communicate things to students? Was that a gathering place?

[Napoleon Peoples]: At that point, that bulletin board became insignificant. At that point, students were talking about, Hey are you going, to the, you know, to the march or whatever, to that march or whatever you want to call it-- a protest. They weren’t looking at a bulletin board. As a matter of fact, they were so focused on trying to-- it was sort of electric, so they were focused on that. You asked about the day, what happened during the day. It was more calm during the day, there were discussions and students were going to class. I mean, they were going to class. It was in the evening a lot of times, or late afternoon I would say. Two, three, or four, whatever. They would go out on, what is that place called out there? Where the bell is. They would go out there and have those discussions, but I couldn’t be everywhere. I had to go to class too, but there was lots of activity. – Okay thank you. Let me move to May 4th and tell you what that was like. I think that evening before May 4th it was, it was, it was like-- what is that term in music, the crescendo. I mean it arrived to a point where something was going to happen. I didn’t know what. I mean, you had military here, and I haven’t talked about, and maybe I should-- it doesn’t matter, but my experiences, you know, just trying to get on campus. You know, with all this marching, you know, stuff they were doing. It was just like, they were everywhere and I remember one incident, I was trying to drive-- because you had to go past down to get back on--

[Interviewer]: The check points.

[Napoleon Peoples]: --check points and I was telling them, you know, I work here, you know, I’m a graduate counselor, I’m trying to help the students, and the guy had the bayonet on his thing and he was at my car window and I was getting more angry on several levels. One, is that I didn’t understand why they are being so hostile. I understood what the students were doing and I would imagine they were afraid. Two, I’m dealing with my own identity as an African American male. I’m dealing with, man, I go out every day and I’m faced with racism. You know, I’m dealing with that, I’m dealing with being a good employee trying to help these students who don’t understand the ramifications of all this. I’m dealing with the Vietnam War with friends and others who have gotten killed in Vietnam. I’m dealing with, you know, this guy standing above me telling me even though I’m telling him, “I need to get back on campus because--” and he wants to see ID and he’s-- every time I say something he wants to shut me down before I’m finished and he has the bayonet of his gun up in my face. It was almost like he as pushing it towards-- and I was like, this is crazy. Let me just shut up and not say anything and you know, having them-- my life, my life was-- it was like I was so controlled yet I had all these things in my head. I’m trying to help these kids, and yet I’m faced with racism. This seems like racism to me, it didn’t seem like it was military. It seemed like he was just being more of the same. You know, you go out driving while black, you know, driving and get stopped by the police. It’s like more of the same so I’m overloaded with all of this stuff, so I’m like, okay, don’t say anything, alright, thank you sir, I’m glad-- so May 4th-- I remember that day so vividly. That morning, it was like, eerie. I mean, I had this sense of-- I don’t know if you would call it foreboding or whatever, but that morning was strange because I was like, all this stuff had happened just-- and we were all up in it, I mean, I haven’t told you half of it that I’ve probably repressed, but we were all up in this stuff. I mean, I had been on the other side of campus earlier before the 4th. I mean, I had been over there, I saw humans, I saw tear gas and they run toward the fence, I knew the fence was there and the crowd just-- this is, this is a bit before May 4th. I’ll get back to May 4, but I just want to tell you about this incident. They were tear gas over there by the bell and the students were running, running, and I knew there was a fence there, and it’s like the crowd stopped and I said, where can they go? That’s a fence. The crowd stopped, it was like they were moving in slow motion, slow motion and then they started running, it was like they were jumping over the fence, and I was like, they can’t jump over the fence, the fence is what, six feet, six feet tall? And when it happened, I was just looking and later I left and I said, “Wow this is crazy.” Later I went back and looked at the fence and guess what had happened, they had bent the fence all the way down, I’m talking about the fence just-- I’m talking about human will, the fence just was bent and I couldn’t believe it. That’s why they were stopped. You know, somehow the pressure just-- and I was like--

[Interviewer]: That was by the bell?

[Napoleon Peoples]: This was over by that area, that open area, what is it? Allerton-- I forget what it is, but anyway, it was in that field where the bell was located. You know, it was right back-- but there was a fence back there, I think that’s where it was. Yeah, and it just went down and I was like, “What?” There should be pictures if this, yeah, I don’t go back and read all this stuff, but-- because there were people out there taking pictures. I saw people out there who looked like there were-- I don’t know, news or what, but I went back and the fence was bent and I was like, “What is going on?” Now this preceded the 4th. So the 4th comes and I’m talking to-- and you interviewed Steve Hegedeos-- you heard the interview-- and Steve and I were talking a lot. So May 4th comes and there was another guy who was on our staff, Bob France and we were talking about-- Bob was taking pictures and stuff all along, but-- and there were other people, too, but we get to this point and I’m like, “Boy that was crazy, that was crazy.” So-- but we’re at breakfast and things are going on, students are ambling around and talking about their anger. Now they’re talking about anger, they were really angry because of all this drama, and they feel now, we’ve been treated unfairly and this isn’t equitable and they had these people with all this stuff around and they checkpoints and we can’t do anything, and we feel caged.We were directed-- Steve and I were, they were going up toward the-- this is before-- and remember, this happened before-- the shooting was what, 12 o’clock, 11 o’clock? 12 o’clock or something around there. So we were going up there-- Steve, let’s go over there. So the director of the-- name of Tom Alford-- he asked us to go over and-- because-- I don’t know if he asked the whole staff, but we were talking to him. I think he asked Steve and me. He probably told others, can you go over there and see if you can get students to come back. So we went over there and of course people-- there were so many people, not as many as that evening, but they were sparsely-- because they were going to class. You know, there was class, you walk through there to go to class. Education building, all this other stuff, speech and hearing. So we went over and we were like, “C’mon guys, you gotta come on back. We saw somebody.” So finally, they were like, I’m not going to listen to you, I’m not coming back, I don’t have to go back to--“I said, “Okay.” So we walked up the hill, we walked up and there was football field or something, I don’t know what they-- practice or something I guess. So we were standing in the parking lot, and yesterday was one of the first times, well, no, I hadn’t seen that before. We went to the parking lot, we were standing there and I was talking to Steve and we were talking and we see these guys come and they are ROTC and they walk up-- not ROTC, Army Reserve and they walk up and they kneel and they looked like they were kneeling. They were down, they had their gun directly at us, right on that area where those kids got shot. They were just pointing the guns over that way and I turned and I said, “Steve, look!” and he looked and he said, “that’s crazy,” and I said something like, “Oh, they don’t have bullets, they just, they just doing that,” and we kept talking. They still had the guns, I mean, they were like, at the other end of the football-- but they were just like, where we were. They just had this lined up with these guns. So I said-- and it was early in the morning. Not early in the morning, you know, eleven, eleven-thirty. Whatever. So we were standing there so Steve said to me-- I said “I’m going to stay here because I can see more students, you know, from this point of view. I can see these guys coming over-- from our residence hall dorm. I can see them.” And Steve said, “Well I tell you what, what you should do is you go around this side, I’m going up toward the--” I guess not towards the hill, but it’s up on the other side, and I said “no, I’m going to just stay here,” and he left and I was still standing there, they had put the guns down then. They had started talking, they looked like they were talking and they were moving toward the hill. They had turned like-- get this, I have to stand up for this stuff. Because it was daytime, I knew things happen at night. So I start walking back to the dorm, I was going back to McDowell and I think I got-- I don’t know how far I had gotten over there and I heard this, (making firecracker noise), like, it sounded like, just firecrackers. So I said oh, it’s firecrackers. So I kept walking back to the dorm and then I saw people running, literally running towards where I was going. Just running, screaming and stuff, and I got to the door and everybody was like we need, we need sheets, blah, blah, blah-- shooting. They were just-- and I was like, “what?” and so I’m trying to-- now I’m trying to-- I’m going into another mood, I’m trying to get students-- they were crying-- I’m trying to get students calmed down. Misinformation was coming because they were, they were saying all kinds of stuff. I just remember shooting. So I said, this is crazy. I can go back over there or I can try to contain this because they were out of control and it was the most-- I guess for me, it was so scary because I had seen those, you know, National Guard over there, but I didn’t never for the life of me-- it took me a long time to really understand this. So I was like, you know, they wouldn’t shoot the students, I know they wouldn’t shoot the students. So I was thinking because of all this stuff we had heard about The Weathermen and I thought maybe somebody-- oh, the other thing they said was Vietnam guys were coming back and they were going to do stuff. So I’m thinking, well something happened but these students are just out of control because they were like-- so, I decided to go help at that level and walk back up, but by the time I walked back up, there were ambulances and all kinds of stuff. I could hear them (making siren noises) all over the place, and so I was like, “Wow.” So the information flow was really uh, sort of fragmented. So finally I went back to the residence facility and it was at that point they said something about we were going to close the campus, we’re going to do whatever. Now, the time period, it was like, for me, time stopped. So if you asked me, what time was the shooting, when did it happen? I can’t tell you, all I know is that we went into panic mode trying to help these students leave the campus because somehow they were-- they had to be out of there twelve o’clock or-- I can’t remember the time, maybe you might have it clear, I can’t remember that now, but I remember is was a short period, and what I remember is the buses were coming because they had to come in front of the building. They had-- this transportation system, I knew it was really good, but this really was over the top. They had buses to Pittsburgh, Cleveland, airport. I mean, they were just lined up, and students were, were-- and of course we had to deal with parents, parents were calling and people were calling and it was just crazy, and this period was so crazy I can’t remember all the details. I do know that there was lots of stuff happening and I do remember those buses and I remember students on my floor, they were out of control. They were like-- so it was growing and bigger, and bigger, and bigger, and bigger and I don’t remember what happened after that. The next memory I have is going back to my floor after all the students left, it was dead silence, it was dead silence. There was nothing, nothing. It was almost like you could hear a pin drop because you’re accustomed to hearing all this noise and I remember walking up the stairs and I think I went-- I didn’t take the elevator. I don’t think-- no. I remember going up-- did I take-- no. I didn’t take the stairs. I went up the outside because-- that door that I told you was broken-- they had tried to fix it with plywood and stuff so I went up the stairwell and I got to my floor and I opened the door and I looked down the hall. It looked like there was a major, someone said there was a major something disease out and people had to rush away. Stuff was all strewn over the hall, all down the hall. So I went from-- and doors were open. I went down and I was looking in this door, in this room and this room. I got halfway down the hall and I just couldn’t take it. I mean, it was quiet, dead quiet and I sat on the floor and I just began to sob because it was so sad to see these--this-- culminate to this where it was just silence, nothing and I remember going back to my-- you know, as a graduate counselor you have an apartment within the dorm. I remember going in there, I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t have anybody to talk to. I didn’t know what to do. So Steve and I-- I can’t even remember whether I talked to him or talked to some of the other graduate counselors. I don’t remember if we got back together to talk at that point, but later that afternoon, later that afternoon, we did get together and a couple of us went over to the site. Everybody’s gone and I’ll never ever, ever, ever forget this-- we’re walking over there and it started raining, but it wasn’t a rain, it was like a mist. Like, you take a mister-- it was this fine rain-- I’ll never forget that. It was fine rain and we got over there and it was just enough where that kid who had been laying on the ground-- you could see the water and the blood just going down the little-- you know, it was like-- and we were remembered and-- you know, and I’ve talked to other-- we remembered that there was a, a guy there-- he looked sort of like he had a Colombo, you know who Colombo was?

[Interviewer]: Yes.

[Napoleon Peoples]: They had this, had this, he had this, had this overcoat on. You know, a rain coat, whatever it is. He had a little hat on, he had a little pad in his hand and he was-- he was a reporter I guess, but he didn’t talk to us. He was just walking around. He might have talked to-- he didn’t talk to me, but he was walking-- and it was so surrealistic, so we decided to take pictures, and we took pictures of the bullet hole in the tree and the other-- well, we had been taking pictures all along. You know, students had been taking pictures, but I took a picture of that hole. Now, here’s the wild part. Because everybody was gone, we had full access to the entire campus. There was nobody here but us. So we didn’t have anything to eat. So when I got back to Beall-McDowell, the women-- we decided to go to the cafeteria, and went up in the cafeteria-- ’cause we wanted to eat and food was there. I mean, it was in the refrigerator. So we-- but we didn’t have anything-- because the pots were so big. They were huge pots, how do you even cook something in a big pot-- they were cooking them for mass people, and so we-- I remember these steaks, because we were laughing and saying, Aw man there’s steaks, plenty of food, but we didn’t have-- you know, I don’t even remember whether-- I think one of the-- couple of the staff members probably cooked something up with these big burners and stuff, but we were all sad. I remember we were all devastated, but we didn’t talk much. We probably were in shock. We didn’t talk much and we’re just-- we’re trying to make things funny. Like we would hold the pots up-- I think we have pictures of that, holding the pots up, like how are we going to cook in this. You know, stuff like-- and after that I can’t remember what happened because I think we were all probably in shock. The next vision I have is when they told us-- the resident director said, “You guys have to get your stuff together, we’re moving”-- and it was in the evening. It could have been the evening of the 4th-- I don’t think so. It may have been, it could have been the 5th. He said, you have to move, we’re leaving, and so I said, “Leaving where?” We’re going to-- and they took us to-- it was a small group right? They took us to housing because they wanted to make sure we’re contained because they were getting all kinds of stuff, and I know this for a fact-- they were getting stuff about people coming and going to do this and that and they were going to shoot and all kinds of things. So they came in a bus with the windows with the tape on it. You know, the windows with the X on the windows and I remember they had a, they had a military jeep in the back and they had this military jeep in the front and if I’m not mistaken the military jeep in front had an M6, one of those guns on it and so they made us get on the bus-- they didn’t make us-- they asked us--they didn’t make us. They asked us to get in the bus and the bus took off and they took it over-- took us over to Small Group and there were National Guard everywhere. Like, you were on a military base. They took us as to Small Group and we took our little stuff, the Small Group, and we felt displaced. So our trauma continued to grow because we didn’t know what was going to happen. It just continued to grow more and more and more as the days went on because we didn’t have counselors, I mean, we didn’t have therapists there for post traumatic-- we didn’t have anything. So, we were trying to figure this stuff out ourselves and sort of work through what was going to happen next. This, what I’m about to tell you, I had to verify it with one of the, two of the staff members to see if it was true because it was so surrealistic. It hasn’t been written about, what I’m about to tell you, but that night-- one of those nights, I looked out the window and there was the equipment-- where they kept trucks and everything-- it was on fire. I mean, it was just burning like crazy, it was on fire. The whole thing was over there burning down. So we were like, what is going on, and then we heard fire, like gun fire like, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap-- tap, tap, tap-- and this-- the reason why I am saying I had to verify this before I’m telling you this now because I couldn’t-- I thought it was maybe something I made up. So when I got back here this week and two weeks ago when I was talking to another-- I said, “Was that true?” and they said yeah, but it’s almost-- I didn’t want to say it. They said, because it seems like it was surreal-- I said, it really happened. So, it was crazy, it was crazy because everybody was gone. It had calmed down, we didn’t have information and then this building-- I looked out my window and I was like, “Oh my god--” the building was on fire.

[Interviewer]: So when you say trucks what are you talking about?

[Napoleon Peoples]: It’s where they-- it’s where the university kept their vehicles for, or-- I don’t know what was over there-- they kept saying they were vehicles. It could have been lawn mowers and trucks. Whatever vehicles it was. It was a facility that was burning down. I’m telling you, we were looking right at it, and we heard this tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. I said, what is going on. So now our sense of, of, of security is over the top and then we saw these military trucks going by, they were like, going fast. You know, there were a lot of them out there when that thing was burning. So I was like, aw man, this is ridiculous.

[Interviewer]; Can we back up? You said they took you to Small Group. I don’t know--

[Napoleon Peoples]: What is that Small Group housing-- I don’t know if they call it still-- but it was Small Group housing over-- it was, I can’t remember. Anyway, it was where married students-- I guess that’s what you call-- married students housing. So, they took us over there. Steve should have told you about this yesterday when you talked to him, but anyway-- They took us over to where they had married student housing. It was crazy. It was crazy. So now, I have a job-- they’re trying to contact me. We’re under martial law so they can’t get in. I can’t call out. We can’t call in or out. So I’m trying to figure out what happened to-- it was crazy-- anyway--

[Interviewer]: So why do you think they didn’t-- how did you guys still manage to get to stay on campus? How come they didn’t make you leave campus or was--

[Napoleon Peoples]: Because they needed us. Because they needed us for-- and I can’t remember. See, the trauma I think, was so great-- it would have been better if we were interviewed during that time because this is forty--something years ago and I remember going back to residence halls helping students leave. I think they had students-- I think we were here 14 days. I can’t remember, I think it was 14, but I can’t even remember that, but it was sequential. They had students coming back to get their stuff and I remember so clearly some people were outside Beall and I knew that I was still a graduate counselor, but I’m trying to think-- was it before, because it was here two years as a graduate counselor, was it before that, or was it after that? That’s the part I can’t get together, but I do remember being here and some of this stuff is running together now and that’s why it’s hard to really talk about it because I can’t remember after that-- being in that Small Housing, whatever that place is over there. I can’t remember what happened, because I know I went to Virginia after that. I know I had my car here. I know I had to move. I remember packing the U-Haul up and leaving to go to Virginia, but I can’t remember all the details.

[Interviewer]: So when you were packing up, was it still during the time the campus was shut down?

[Napoleon Peoples]: The campus was shut down, oh yeah. The campus was shut down. Yeah, I’m telling you, we had freedom because we could develop our film. I mean, we just had freedom, we could go wherever we wanted to go.

[Interviewer]: So what are some of the other things that pop out to you that you did during that time the campus was closed?

[Napoleon Peoples]: Walk around everywhere with no people and the National Guard and they would always like, they were so-- I don’t know what they were into, but they were like, always watching us. Like, they were “Big Brother,” you know, and I think they were into who are you and they would stop us sometimes and-- where are you going and they had all these checkpoints, all these-- all around the campus these checkpoints and then they would be driving through the campus. So I would try to be as friendly as I could because I was still taking courses. I had a course. I think I was taking something like projective techniques of testing. So I was trying to figure out who I was going to test-- they’re here so maybe I could get them to do this, because I needed to finish my course work, but they were everything. I mean, they were just-- and to be honest with you, after-- during that time, some of them were sort of friendly. I mean, you could talk to them, you know. I guess-- but others weren’t as friendly. You know, they were still in that zone, but because they didn’t bring in-- what is it-- was in only the National Guard or did that happen-- or did they bring in the Army Reserve? I don’t remember. That would probably be in books and people probably-- I can’t remember that, but--

[Interviewer]: So when you said they were friendly, what do you remember-- tell me--

[Napoleon Peoples]: They were sitting-- yeah, I do-- I remember a guy sitting on the truck, on their jeep and we were-- I forget, I know I was there. We went over and was like, hey, how are you doing. Went over and talked and we were talking to them and they asked some questions. You know, this is scary and they were just talking. I mean, they were just talking. Yeah, we had to come here. I’m a-- whatever their profession was. You know, this is what I do and so they were National Guard and so I was like, this must be scary because I was scared. I said, but you can go home, I can’t. I mean, it was like, I was there and I don’t know why. When you ask the question were we ever given instruction? Yeah, to help the students. Were we given any more instructions? I don’t remember a lot of instructions, but--

[Interviewer]: They asked to help the students.

[Napoleon Peoples]: Yeah, we knew what we were supposed to do but we were way down on the totem pole, and I don’t fault-- I work in a university now and I know how that sort of works. I mean, but today we have crisis and you know, we have crisis situations and emergency-- so we have a lot of stuff we didn’t have back then, and nobody ever thought that would happen. You know, and when we look at history and go back and look at history, you know, I know people who said, well why didn’t they do this-- when that stuff is happening, it is happening fast. You don’t have time to react. So I don’t know what was going on up top of the university. I don’t know what was going on. I do know that-- and I remember this, I remember some place there was a trucker strike going on in Cleveland and I remember reading prior to this that is the Governor told them to lock and load. That they could put live ammunition in their weapon. I don’t know if they were National Guard or Army Reserve or what. I remember that. I remember they pulled some of them out and sent them to Kent. I don’t know if they kept that policy. I don’t know how they got ammunition because that’s unusual. I don’t know, but there were two things happening simultaneously and that was that trucker strike where they said people were shooting at the trucks and all that, and Kent State happened. So, when people talk about this from a historical point of view, I have limited information. All I know is what I read, and I remembered it because I was like, what, they are sending these people down to Kent? So when they came my assumption was that they were the Army Reserve or maybe or National Guard with Army, I don’t know.

[Interviewer]: So, what were some of the challenges? I know you said about the food and I can’t imagine and I can’t imagine having to cook food for-- how many counselors actually were left out of the group?

[Napoleon Peoples]: Oh boy, about seven, eight out of-- must have been about 16 because there was a counselor for each floor. So there were eight floors, double that, so 16. I just remember eight-- if I got my pictures-- I need to find the pictures that we took and then I would be able to have a better way of telling you that. One of the persons-- it’s sad because she’s not with us anymore-- her name was Barbara Douglas. She was, she was a beautiful person, over the top, took control. She was a lot of fun and it’s unfortunate that she passed, but we were all-- we were a close group. We were close knit and we supported each other and so on and so forth. You know, and--

[Interviewer]: But what were some of the challenges that you faced still being on campus? You know, you had access to food but--

[Napoleon Peoples]: Well we did, we did for that moment we were in the cafeteria, but that didn’t last because they moved us and I can’t remember what we ate then. I know they had food there. I mean, they had to have food there, but that was a challenge. You know, the biggest challenge was and I think this was for everybody-- now knowing. Not knowing. And it was more of a challenge after we were here after May 4th because it was not knowing and not getting information. Whether it was made up, perceived, or what. We didn’t have any information. So it’s like-- and then you see things happening outside your window and you’re like, what’s going on. So who are you going to talk to? There was nobody to talk to, you know? I mean, we talked to the resident director so he didn’t have any more information. So you had to-- I don’t know, make it up? I don’t know. I felt safe because of all these military people around, but I didn’t feel safe because the military people were around. Do you understand what I am saying? I felt safe because they were there, but I didn’t feel safe. That sounds counter to--

[Interviewer]: No but--

[Napoleon Peoples]: It was like, what I had seen-- it was like-- man they could come in here and do whatever and I didn’t understand what martial law meant. You understand what I’m saying? I didn’t know the power of this magical thing, this beast called martial law. I do remember that there were people here who were confiscating all the-- everything. Tapes, film, anything that was about Kent there were people here getting that information. I didn’t know who those people were, I didn’t know-- but you know, we got information back because somehow we got that information. Aw they’re downtown, they’re taking film and they’re doing this, and they’re doing that.

[Interviewer]: So was that some of the reports you were getting back once you moved to Small Group? That people are coming into campus taking the--

[Napoleon Peoples]: I got that material before I moved there that there were people there and then when I got to Small Group, we got limited information coming in, but stuff would come in like, well these people are here and-- and I don’t remember where I remember this from but I remember someone, I don’t remember if it was before or after. They were saying the FBI is here and they are blowing these pictures up and putting them in the gym and they are looking-- rumors. All kinds of rumors. So you felt safe because the-- and I kept saying, safe from whom? Because we didn’t know-- who is this, who is the villain here? You know, I mean, they shot the people, but they’re here protecting-- it was crazy.

[Interviewer]: So you said you had positive interactions at that time.

[Napoleon Peoples]: At that time, at that time there-- I didn’t have-- after May 4th I didn’t have, I don’t remember any negative interactions. It was all prior to and up and to that point, but I think after everything calmed down and we could walk-- that’s what I’m trying to tell you, we could go where we wanted to as long as we didn’t go outside that perimeter. We could walk-- sure they would stop you like I said earlier. They’d maybe stop you and ask where you were going, but they were right there and if you walked up and talked to them-- I mean, some of them were willing to talk. You know what I mean? They would just talk like normal people talk and I would-- oh, and another thing is because I was doing the testing stuff, I had the chance to go over and ask would you be willing to do this for me and what is it and I said I’m taking a course and you know, but you can’t do an effective testing in a-- like that—

[Interviewer]: So what, so what-- so you used the soldiers, the National Guard that were there--

[Napoleon Peoples]: I took-- and I don’t know-- I should have kept all that data, but I asked some questions and some things that I needed to do. There was one guy who said, “I’ll do it.” He was talking, so maybe more than one, but I had this stuff and-- but I couldn’t really do it effectively. You know, I mean, you’re outside, you’re sitting there. Other people are around, you know, you couldn’t really do that stuff.

[Interviewer]: Could you share what the test was and do you-- I know that’s a long time ago. Maybe something of that--

[Napoleon Peoples]: I can’t remember. I was doing all kinds of stuff testing. We were doing MMPIs [Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory tests], you can’t do that there. I mean, we were doing all kinds of stuff, but it was fascinating, it was really fascinating to be in a situation where there was so much ambiguity and so much conflict and confusion and all the things that you could possibly think about. People collaborating and misinformation and fear and illogic and danger and all those things coming together, converging on people who were trying to make a difference and god knows what the students were going through. You know, as they were going through because at first it was like, fun. I’m sure it was fun. You know, hey we’re protesting. Everybody was protesting in the country you know, but they were protesting the war and all that stuff, but at one point it stopped being fun for them. You know, because they would come back, oh yeah we were out there-- a lot of them weren’t-- my interpretation of that protesting-- this is my interpretation. I think 17, 18, 19 year olds, 20 year olds, many of them were just out there-- they would go by. They wanted to see, they were observers. They didn’t know what that meant. They were observers, but they were in the process-- no more war, no more war-- you know, that’s what kids do, but at one point it just turned negative.

[Interviewer]: So do you remember those final days before you left campus?

[Napoleon Peoples]: That’s what I can’t remember, that’s what’s hard to remember. It seems as though I should remember that, right? You mean after things had calmed down.

[Interviewer]: Calmed down and--

[Napoleon Peoples]: I can’t, I cannot, I’ve tried to remember when I left. I remember my car, I remember taking my stuff. I don’t even remember saying goodbye to the other counselors. I don’t remember that part. That part I do not remember.

[Interviewer]: Do you remember-- I know you said because everyone was in shock-- do you remember if there was ever a point during your time being on campus during the shutdown that you started to-- where everyone started to maybe to start to talk about what they had experienced or was it really kind of just--

[Napoleon Peoples]: We, and I’ve talked to other people-- we did not talk about that stuff. I did not talk about that stuff for-- until I talked with Pam Anderson. I had not talked about that-- that was something I hadn’t talked about with anyone. Basically what I went through-- I went to Virginia and I was getting a job and they asked me to, to give a speech and they built it all up. Yeah, this guy is coming down here --Kent State-- blah, blah, blah, blah and I remember telling them, you know, I understand why you’re protesting. I hear you, but let me just tell you, it is more serious than you really think because you do this-- anyway, I got into a speech about what they were doing and they, they were anticipating me saying, yeah, rah, rah, rah, revolution and we need to be out--no, I didn’t do that because I had seen stuff they had never seen or experienced and all I saw when I was looking at those faces was students at Kent State who were naïve who didn’t understand that whole process and were out there because it was-- you know, ideology is one thing, you know, where you want to make change, but I just saw the back, bad side of it. So anyway, I remember that, but there are so many pieces that I can’t really remember and what would happen-- I think what would be really great for you as a person doing this-- is if you could get a group of us together and talk about--in a group-- and let us talk with each other about this. I think you would get a real interesting-- you would have an interesting story because we were together. We worked together, we interacted together and what we’re doing now is I’m giving my story and Steve gives his story and someone else gives their story, but if we were in a group, you know, and we were just talking about-- man, what did you experience and why did you-- you know, how did you-- what happened-- I think the lines would start connecting and you’ll probably have a much richer story. That would be a story that you could-- you know, that would be a great story because-- and I know it’s true because there was one question I asked one of the persons-- how did we get over to, on May 4th, how did we get over to-- why did we go over to the practice field? Why did we go over there? And he said, “Oh well, they asked us to.” Then it came back. I said, “Oh yeah, that’s right, they did ask students to come back.” Because they asked us that a couple times even before May 4th.

[Interviewer]: Is there anything else, from your return that you can recall that really stood out for you being here on campus in those days?

[Napoleon Peoples]: I don’t. I don’t. I just remember leaving and driving for hours going to my job and when I got to my job there was a police officer-- you can’t park here, you need to park-- and I was like, this is-- and I remember feeling real angry and I was like, can’t tell me where to park, I mean I’m parked in a-- you got that trailer-- so it was a-- I remember stuff like that but it was after the fact, after Kent.

[Interviewer]: Did the events of May 4th and your experiences in the weeks that followed impact you personally? Like, do you have any-- do you feel like you’ve had any long- lasting effect because of those experiences?

[Napoleon Peoples]: No. I haven’t. I’ve always been involved in you know, social justice issues. I mean, I’ve always thought about social justice and how it really plays itself out, but no, I don’t think this one situation-- you know, as an African American male-- I mean, I’m bombarded even today with situations where-- I shouldn’t say bombarded, that’s too strong of a word, let me back up. I’m faced with situations that speak of social injustice from time to time and I try to figure out how that really works, but no, Kent was just a part of that whole experience. My experience going through this because really, there were only moments when I was a target. I mean, there was, for the most part, it was a social movement. So no one was really being targeted. I guess, except the ideology, the movement, stop the war, it’s not fair, and so on and so forth, but as far as me at Kent-- I was affected because I was involved in helping students to manage some of this stuff and trying to help students get out of harm’s way. So that pulled me into the fray. See what I’m saying? For the most part they were students, not students of color-- they were the majority students-- trying to help them, but I’ve always been about social justice so that has been a hallmark for me. Kent was just another thing to add to the series of events.

[Interviewer]: So did you come back to campus at all after--

[Napoleon Peoples]: After Kent I came after that incident I came back to finish my doctorate, but when I came back to finish my doctorate I moved down 43, Kent Village, but I never-- I can’t even remember going back over to that area while I was there. I never had a desire-- I didn’t see that area really until-- I think I went past there one time, but really, yesterday or the day before. So when I was working on my degree, my dissertation it was all around that. I would go to the Education building, go home, go to Dr. Wilson’s, go home, but I never had a need to go back to Beall-McDowell or where the practice facility is or the Architecture building. I never had a desire to go there and I just thought about that the other day when someone said-- when you came back did you-- I never did, I never went back up there and I don’t even know why. I mean, I never did. I wasn’t-- I didn’t want to go back, I guess.

[Interviewer]: Did they ask you to come back as a counselor? They didn’t even ask--

[Napoleon Peoples]: Did they ask me--

[Interviewer]: To come back as a residence counselor.

[Napoleon Peoples]: Oh, I was finished. I had done two years, I was finishing my master’s in EDS. So I was finished. I was gone. Um, ’68, yeah, I was gone, I was finished. My coming back was to finish a dissertation, you know, I needed a year’s residency or something. Then the dissertation, so I did that. I got the residency and then I started working on the dissertation and I finished in ’77, but I had no need to come back on campus. Do you see my point? This is the first time I really got to see all that, those lights and-- I hadn’t seen any of that stuff. That was quite interesting. It was interesting to see that.

[Interviewer]: Well, is there anything else you would like to add that I haven’t brought to light?

[Napoleon Peoples]: Not, not, not really. Not really. I do think it would be interesting if people who were here in groups got together because I know memory is one thing that sometimes people don’t remember, but if you are with people who are alike or similar who went through the experience it would spark-- You know.

[Interviewer]: Well I would like to thank you for taking time out to do this interview.

[Napoleon Peoples]: Sure. You’re welcome. You’re welcome.

[Interviewer]: That concludes our interview with Dr. Napoleon Peoples. ×