Scott Layman, Oral History
Recorded: May 5, 2015
Interviewed by: Kathleen Siebert Medicus
Transcribed by: Kent State University Research and Evaluation Bureau
Note: This transcript includes geo-references to locations that are discussed in the oral history. Geographical names linked in the transcript will open in a new window or tab that takes you to that location information and map in the Mapping May 4 project. To request a transcript without geo-reference links included, please contact Kent State University Special Collections & Archives.
[Interviewer]: Good afternoon, this is Kathleen Siebert Medicus on Tuesday May 5, 2015, at the Kent State University Libraries Department of Special Collections and Archives and I will me talking with Scott Layman today for the Kent State Shootings Oral History Project. Scott, could we start with some just basic biographical information? Could you tell me where you were born and where you grew up? [Scott Layman]: I was born in Sayre, Pennsylvania, which is in northeastern Pennsylvania and I grew up in that general area until I went to college. I went to Penn State, graduated and taught industrial arts in Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania, for three years.
[Interviewer]: What brought you to Kent State University? [Scott Layman]: Well, in Pennsylvania, in order to be permanently certified for teaching I needed a master’s degree or equivalent so I looked around and I knew of Kent’s program at that time it was pretty well-known. The director of it was nationally-known for his curriculum ideas and I chose Kent over a couple other places because they were the first ones to give me a graduate assistantship. So, I came and became a graduate student and in the summer of 1967.
[Interviewer]: And then I believe you mentioned earlier, before we started recording, that you then went on to become to a faculty member at Kent State, so could you just outline that for us please? What years were you in grad school and when did you start your teaching here?[Scott Layman]: I was grad assistant from the summer of '67 through the summer of '68.
[Interviewer]: Okay. [Scott Layman]: And at that point I wanted to teach at the college level if possible and as luck would have it there was a vacancy here so I was offered a position and I stayed from fall of 1968 through the spring of 2004.
[Interviewer]: So you, at the time of the shootings on May 4, 1970, were a full-time member of the faculty? [Scott Layman]: I was, yes, I was an instructor in the faculty.
[Interviewer]: And you were in the--[Scott Layman]: And I was--
[Interviewer]: In the Industrial Arts Technology program?[Scott Layman]: Well, Industrial Arts Education at that time.
[Interviewer]: Okay. [Scott Layman]: And, at that time, it was the School of Industrial Arts and Technology and that’s changed names a bunch of times.
[Interviewer]: Many things have.[Scott Layman]: Yes.
[Interviewer]: Okay, I wondered if we could start if you could just maybe describe or paint a picture for us of kind of the atmosphere on campus, what it was like to be a graduate student at Kent State in those years '67 to '68?[Scott Layman]: Well, as a graduate student, I was married and had a small son. So, I went to class, I did my job, I went home, I studied, I wrote papers--I was not involved in any extracurricular things at all at that time. That was enough.
[Interviewer]: And you were living off campus? [Scott Layman]: I was living in married student housing--Allerton Apartments.
[Interviewer]: So you were on campus. [Scott Layman]: I lived there for my year as a grad assistant and I lived there for the next year or two as a married faculty member. I think another year perhaps.
[Interviewer]: What was that like there? Did that feel like a strong community of people living in Allerton? [Scott Layman]: Well, it was interesting. I got to know a few of them, especially one just about three doors away from us, a little bit younger than I was I think, but they had a couple kids as we had one and he was a journalism major and did photography, but he did freelance work and he was up in the Cleveland riots, in Glenville and all that area during that time, sending photographs in to the Plain Dealer and whatever else would purchase them. So we heard a lot of different things through him.
[Interviewer]: Sure. [Scott Layman]: But I wasn’t involved in anything here at the time. In my first couple years of teaching here, it became a little more intense, although in our particular building and programs, the kids were very--not really involved. I did teach a course that involved non-technology majors, non-industrial arts majors, it was across the Fine and Professional Arts College, was one of their possible required non-major courses. So in that course I had some people from across campus from music and theatre and architecture and all the different programs in the College of Fine and Professional Arts. I think the editor of the yearbook actually was in one of my classes and some of those people were a little more on the activist side of activities around campus than I’d say any of our own majors.
[Interviewer]: Interesting. [Scott Layman]: Yeah, it was.
[Interviewer]: So that gave you an opportunity to get to know--[Scott Layman]: A wide range of students.
[Interviewer]: Students from different groups and--[Scott Layman]: I did, it was good, yeah.
[Interviewer]: So for you, your classes were held in what building? [Scott Layman]: I was in Van Deusen Hall, which at that time was shared with the Industrial Arts and Technology as well as the School of Art. In fact, they had some life-drawing classes in there that was always interesting to passersby. But we shared that building and later on we took over the building when the new Art Building was put up.
[Interviewer]: Okay. Was there any sense between 1968 and 1970 of demonstrations on campus that impinged on your classes or interrupted in any way or impacted your life as a professor? [Scott Layman]: I don’t know that it was. It was a gradual escalation of things that took place. So, things were happening outside sometimes some small demonstrations and so forth. I think maybe a couple times in class I had somebody that wanted to say something, stand up and be heard, but that was very minimal certainly in our building. Our kids were pretty much focused on work outside, a lot of them commuted, they didn’t have time for that stuff. So I didn’t really encounter any of that that I recall.
[Interviewer]: I was just thinking in terms of your location in Van Deusen Hall. You’re right off The Commons, you’re right close to the ROTC building at the time. [Scott Layman]: Well--
[Interviewer]: So I didn’t know if--[Scott Layman]: One thing I do recall is just the weekend before this, I guess things were happening Friday night/ Saturday.
[Interviewer]: So that would be that weekend before May 4? [Scott Layman]: Second and third.
[Interviewer]: Yeah, okay. [Scott Layman]: The second and third of May.
[Interviewer]: Well why don’t we talk about that. Let’s go back and start maybe with April 30? And if you could just sort of tell us--[Scott Layman]: What day of the week was that?
[Interviewer]: That would be the Thursday before. [Scott Layman]: Thursday, I have no clue.
[Interviewer]: Okay, start wherever you’d like. [Scott Layman]: Well, I’ll just tell you--
[Interviewer]: The weekend before Monday May 4 and just kind of trace where you were and what you saw. [Scott Layman]: What I remember is I came up here on the Sunday afternoon to work in Deusen Hall and it’s interesting, there were two other art buildings, temporary buildings, between the back end of Van Deusen where I was working and where the burned building was, but I didn’t even see the burned-out building because I had parked on the far side of Van Deusen and come in from that side.
[Interviewer]: Oh, okay. [Scott Layman]: So I was there all afternoon and went home. Didn’t know of anything happening.
[Interviewer]: Didn’t see it because it was on the other side? [Scott Layman]: No.
[Interviewer]: Yeah. [Scott Layman]: But then, Monday morning, I came in and I came in, and I can’t think of the name of the street now, but it was past the old University School.
[Interviewer]: Uh huh. [Scott Layman]: Can you help me with that?
[Interviewer]: Past the old University School? [Scott Layman]: Yeah, this street. [Points to campus map]
[Interviewer]: Was it Summit probably? [Scott Layman]: No, not Summit.
[Interviewer]: Main Street? [Scott Layman]: Not this one. Wait a minute.
[Interviewer]: University School is here. [Scott Layman]: Oh, this street right here.
[Interviewer]: Okay, so we're looking at Morris Road. [Scott Layman]: Morris Road.
[Interviewer]: And the intersection with Summit Road? [Scott Layman]: Well I came up Morris Road and, by the time I got on Morris Road, I found myself following either a halftrack or a jeep or both, I don’t remember just what, but there was a military vehicle and it just surprised me like the dickens. What the heck is this doing here? And obviously I hadn’t listened to the news. So, I didn’t know that the campus was covered with those things and again I parked on top of the hill, above Van Deusen and at that point I don’t believe the business building existed. I don’t recall for sure.
[Interviewer]: I think not. That was built in the 80s.
[Scott Layman]: Yes, and so that was just a parking lot and I parked there and went down into the entrance to Van Deusen and didn’t really know of much going on--
[Interviewer]: Okay. [Scott Layman]: That whole morning and I don’t remember learning about what was going to be taking place and so forth. We just had classes as normal and then I had a--
[Interviewer]: So that was Monday morning? And you had classes? [Scott Layman]: This was Monday morning, a nice sunny day just like yesterday, the 45th anniversary. If it had been raining, we wouldn’t be talking about this, but it didn’t rain. So should I just continue on that?
[Interviewer]: Absolutely, please. [Scott Layman]: At noon, I was team-teaching a lecture for Elementary Ed majors, they had to take a course in elementary school industrial arts. So I was team-teaching at that point and being half-way through the term we were giving a midterm exam in the lecture hall in
Van Deusen. The two of us took turns going out of the building just to see what was happening, because out our back door which was immediately adjacent to the lecture hall, we could look out over The Commons, the Art Building wasn’t there at that time, we could see up across to Taylor Hall and all of that. As we took turns we watched the National Guard move against the kids and throw tear gas canisters and the kids would throw them back and the people in the jeep on the bullhorns trying to get them to disperse and so forth. So I was out there, I believe, when the Guard unit moved the kids and pushed up over the hill past Taylor Hall on to the other side, of course you can’t see there.
I went back in and for a little bit and then I think we took turns going out and I don’t remember, but I know I was out there after they had gone over the hill and it was a period of time later and I heard some pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop and I thought it was firecrackers. So I went back in the building and told my colleague, he said, “What’s happening?” I said, “Well they’re shooting off some firecrackers up there I think,” and that was that. Then before long and before the test was over, which was 12:05-12:55 I believe, before it was over, somebody came running along the hallway and we had our doors open and they were calling for first aid kits and all kinds of rumors about people being killed and shot and so forth and that was probably--if the shootings were about twenty-five after twelve or so, this was probably twenty-five of one.
We finished the exam, students left, and I’m thinking that it was probably another half hour before we heard anything and then phone calls came and said we were to leave campus, campus was closed. So, that was--I got in my car and went home and at that point my dad had had some heart problems, he lived in Pennsylvania and we gathered up my family and we headed to Pennsylvania, about an eight hour drive at that time to northeastern Pennsylvania. Got there some time that Monday evening.
[Interviewer]: How was the little one you had? How old was your--[Scott Layman]: She was three, I’m trying to think if we had a second one by that time.
[Interviewer]: So there were little people involved. [Scott Layman]: At least one, yeah, who was three, four, five, six--I think we had just one maybe.
[Interviewer]: I didn’t mean to put you on the spot with that, I’m sorry. [Scott Layman]: Yeah. But then that was on a Monday, on Thursday night I got a phone call from my colleague who I had been team teaching with and he said we’ve got a mandatory faculty meeting Friday about eleven o’clock. I think that’s when it was. So we got up at about two in the morning and drove westward across Pennsylvania, through Youngstown and back to the faculty meeting and at the faculty meeting we found out that campus was gonna be closed the rest of the term which was five more weeks and we were going to be responsible for continuing our course work, but there would be no students on campus. We had no secretaries. I didn’t type and we had to make up ditto masters and address envelopes and send them out and get the assignments and get them back. My kids in two, three of my classes I was teaching were all finished with the lectures and demonstrations on tools and equipment’s and materials in industrial arts. They were ready to start their lab areas and they weren’t here. So for some of them I had them go, the ones that were going to teach industrial arts, I had them go to their home high schools and work with their industrial arts teachers in their high schools. And for the elementary majors--
[Interviewer]: That was a good idea too. [Scott Layman]: The other faculty member was the prime one there and he came up with assignments and I don’t know what we did. We did a lot of writing and had them do things and I don’t remember how we evaluated them, but we finished the classes, but we did not meet off campus with groups because they were so widely dispersed all over.
[Interviewer]: Including yourself?[Scott Layman]: Yeah.
[Interviewer]: Since you moved back with your family in Pennsylvania? [Scott Layman]: Well, no, no we were back in Ohio by that time.
[Interviewer]: Oh, okay. [Scott Layman]: I think my youngest who was in kindergarten or first grade by that time.
[Interviewer]: Oh, okay. [Scott Layman]: Somewhere in there.
[Interviewer]: So were you able to continue staying at the married student housing?[Scott Layman]: Oh, yeah.
[Interviewer]: On campus? [Scott Layman]: I stayed there for the next year and maybe two.
[Interviewer]: Okay. [Scott Layman]: So, yeah.
[Interviewer]: I see. [Scott Layman]: Next year. I think we had two kids at that point.
[Interviewer]: It’s all a blur when there are young ones involved. [Scott Layman]: Yeah.
[Interviewer]: Where was that faculty meeting on Friday held? [Scott Layman]: In the University Auditorium.
[Interviewer]: Oh boy, wow. [Scott Layman]: Which was in the--this, right here, whatever hall that’s called, I don’t know.
[Interviewer]: It’s called Cartwright now I believe. [Scott Layman]: Well it wasn’t then.
[Interviewer]: Back then it was still called the Administration Building.[Scott Layman]: Yeah.
[Interviewer]: Does that make sense? [Scott Layman]: Yeah, right back of Wills Gym, which was still there.
[Interviewer]: And was it packed? I mean--[Scott Layman]: Oh absolutely, well sure the auditorium was full, I don’t know how many it held but it held eight hundred people, or five hundred. It’s still there I think. I don’t know.
[Interviewer]: So, as far as you know, all the students that you were supervising were able to graduate?[Scott Layman]: All the people that were seniors?
[Interviewer]: Yeah. [Scott Layman]: As far as I know. I mean I’ve talked with some since. I had primarily lower division students.
[Interviewer]: Oh, I see. [Scott Layman]: Freshmen, sophomores, maybe at the most juniors of the Elementary Ed majors, but primarily freshmen and sophomores. Yeah, I had very few seniors at that point.
[Interviewer]: Okay. [Scott Layman]: So I presumed they were, but a lot of them still came back in the fall.
[Interviewer]: Sure, yeah, since you had them.[Scott Layman]: Yeah, or for summer. I mean we had summer school that year.
[Interviewer]: Okay, okay. [Scott Layman]: But for five weeks it was a pretty empty campus. Scranton commission was here and people were all over the place and I was not a part of any of that. I hadn’t been close enough that I was ever interviewed. So, I didn’t know any of the people that were shot or any of that.
[Interviewer]: Were you teaching in that summer session? That summer, did you teach? [Scott Layman]: Yeah I think I did, because in between times we went away, I went to a foundry conference down in North Carolina and went out to the beach and came back. So I’m pretty confident that summer school started sometime in June. Maybe I taught second session, I don’t remember for sure.
[Interviewer]: Sure. Are there any other memories from those days that stand out that you remember? [Scott Layman]: Well, one thing that I wanted to--I think, you want to talk about--what was the meaning of all of this and what did it--there were some very personal things in my own life here as an instructor and later on in my career and, prior to that, I was a little uncertain if I wanted to continue in the teaching profession. You don’t get very rich there. It never was my dream to be rich, but I did think that there might be other things I’d want to do and so I was looking around a little bit. I didn’t necessarily want to go on and get a doctorate. My interest was not in research. And, pretty soon, I had three kids instead of one or two and that took care of that. But, the long-term effect that those five weeks with no students on campus had for me was that I realized what was personally important and significant and, way early on I had never wanted to go into teaching. My parents had been teachers, my aunts and uncles were teachers and principals and I wanted no part of it and as I used to tell my industrial arts education majors, in my career I had two jobs, they were both teaching, one in high school and one in college and I would do it all over again. But what I gained from the May 4th experience and the aftermath was that it was students, they were really important to me. It wasn’t what I taught, it wasn’t necessarily where I taught, although I thoroughly enjoyed it, but it was the people and that made all the difference. And when I realized that I never again thought I needed a different career. I was happy. Looking back after almost forty years of teaching and a decade and a little more since, I’d do it all over again and I realize that’s kind of a selfish viewpoint, but it brought it home to me and I think in a lot of people’s lives, faculty and others, similar kinds of things occurred as a result of that. Not as important as the national events that took place but taken all together, it’s a pretty significant impact.
[Interviewer]: Absolutely.[Scott Layman]: So, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
[Interviewer]: Let’s pause there just for one moment... [pause in the recording]. Okay, this is Kathleen Siebert Medicus, we’re back from a pause, talking with Scott Layman with his oral history and we’d like to pick up with the following fall after the shootings of 1970 May 4. When fall started and classes were starting up again, could you talk about how things were, how the fall started, and how your experiences were during that semester? [Scott Layman]: Yeah, I think there was a lot of anticipation on the part of both faculty and students coming back and then new students coming in. I think we had one of the highest enrollments to that time of students on campus which was kind of gratifying. It dipped after that by quite a bit, but that fall it was exciting to have students come back, I mean to see the classrooms full of kids and people all over campus and so forth, that was exciting. And, of course, it was a new football season and who knew what that would bring and quite frankly the next two or three years brought some pretty good teams to Kent State and they went to the Tangerine Bowl in 1973 I believe. So, some good years there for that kind of thing, but in terms of the students returning to campus, I think there was a lot of relief they could get back on campus, they could get back on track, continue their education, go toward graduation. In terms of the faculty I think it was great to have secretarial help back on campus when you didn’t have to type up your own tests and mail them out and all that kind of thing.
[Interviewer]: I can imagine. [Scott Layman]: Yeah, that was an ordeal and not something you’d want to repeat, but in terms of turmoil and so on, of course Cambodia and all of those things were still ongoing to some extent so it wasn’t absolutely quiet, but it certainly was a lot different than May 4th and I don’t have any real--any other noteworthy things to say about that. From then on it was a positive step up. I think it took us as a university another decade before we accepted the fact it was part of our history. It took parents of college-age kids coming in at least that long to not focus on the fact that four kids were shot at Kent. And, no matter where you went, especially during those times and those next years, if you were known to have come from Kent State, why, obviously there were questions right away and comments that you got very tired of hearing and tired of responding to, but then as time has gone by, it’s part of the heritage, it’s part of our history. Kent is--Kent State for a while didn’t want to be known as Kent State, it was Kent [emphasis on Kent] State University, and then finally it’s become Kent State again, which it should be and there’s a lot of pride and they’ve overcome that and it is part of our history and heritage and doggonit so much, so much has been done since to make this a better university all the way around. So from that standpoint, all was not lost. Terrible tragedy, but tremendous changes and improvement and growth since then. So I think anybody that has come through that can think back and say, “You know what? We’ve done really well. We ought to be proud of it.”
[Interviewer]: You as a faculty member noticed that sort of subtle naming change during Carol Cartwright’s administration then, where the signs went from being “Kent” in really big words and “State University” in small words... [Scott Layman]: Yes.
[Interviewer]: She had all the signs on campus changed to Kent State.
[Scott Layman]: Yes, smart lady, she was tremendous. But I think it took the number of presidents since the shooting--Robert White was our president, which is just an unfortunate thing, uh wonderful person. It took Glenn Olds to come and do his healing as a Methodist minister and so forth and it took Brage Golding to come in and be a little stronger and getting some things moving and then like Schwartz carrying on in that regard, it was a transition all the way through and Carol Cartwright came in, I think all these people were here at the right time for them and just tremendous growth and development through all of those in different ways. I left when Carol Cartwright was either left or right after--she left right after me.
[Interviewer]: Okay. [Scott Layman]: So I can’t speak for President Lefton. But, I’m really impressed with the new president. She sounds--she’s got her feet on the ground, and they're running.
[Interviewer]: You heard her speech at the--[Scott Layman]: I heard her, I heard her yesterday and I wanted to do this on May 4th which was a sunny Monday, just like it had been but, due to technical difficultie, we’re here on May 5th.
[Interviewer]: Okay. May 4 was yesterday, the forty-fifth anniversary was also a very busy day for everyone. [Scott Layman]: Yes, it was.
[Interviewer]: So, today’s quieter. [Scott Layman]: Yes.
[Interviewer]: So, that point toward the end of Carol Cartwright’s time is--that was when you retired from-- [Scott Layman]: I retired in 2004.
[Interviewer]: From Kent State? [Scott Layman]: Yes.
[Interviewer]: Okay, I’m wondering if you would be willing to talk briefly about if there was any sort of impact or effect on your family’s life. You moved out of campus housing at some point and did you live in Kent after that?[Scott Layman]: We moved out of campus housing into a house in Brimfield which is three or four miles south. We were there for several years-- a couple years and outgrew that place, had our third child and we built a home a little further south but right outside of Mogadore Reservoir.
[Interviewer]: Okay. [Scott Layman]: And behind Field High School and lived there through my retirement. Things have happened since and I no longer live there and I’m no longer married.
[Interviewer]: Okay. [Scott Layman]: You can edit that out if you want, that has nothing to do with May 4th.
[Interviewer]: I wasn’t necessarily asking those questions, but I didn’t know if your family lived in Kent. [Scott Layman]: Yeah.
[Interviewer]: If there was kind of a long-lasting impact on your family life during the aftermath of the shooting? [Scott Layman]: I don’t know that--
[Interviewer]: If your children were aware. [Scott Layman]: Well, my oldest son at the time was, let’s see, In ‘70, he was six. He was six.
[Interviewer]: Oh, so he was at school that day? [Scott Layman]: He probably was in kindergarten or--he was either five or six.
[Interviewer]: Okay. [Scott Layman]: And as I recall he was in kindergarten at the University School but I’m foggy in that regard. As to picking him up and taking him there and so forth, I don’t remember that. Impact on the family?--
[Interviewer]: It would be interesting to interview him to see what he remembers.[Scott Layman]: It would be and you could do that if you wanted, although it’s up to him.
[Interviewer]: Of course.[Scott Layman]: I will say that we stayed in the area, we stayed here, we had no thought of moving, no thought of changing jobs, no thought of leaving. As it turns out, my wife got two degrees from Kent and all three of my children have degrees from Kent. I now have a grandson who’s a sophomore here and one who will be a graduate student in the fall here. So impact? Wow. It certainly was not negative and they’re all happy for all of that. It’s a good place to be, I think. I think the growth pains and the transition pains that Kent had, it had been growing rapidly through the Sixties up to that point--adding faculty, adding buildings, adding programs, and that was a real jolt to the university. You dropped from, I don’t know, twenty-five thousand on campus to fifteen or sixteen thousand. It took a long time to come back, but it survived and has flourished and there has even been some winning football teams since, a couple of them.
[Interviewer]: Is there anything else you wanted to say or touch on that we haven’t covered? [Scott Layman]: At the moment, I don’t think of anything, do you have any other topics on there?
[Interviewer]: I don’t, I do not. [Scott Layman]: Okay, we’ve gone through the list?
[Interviewer]: Okay. [Scott Layman]: I really don’t.
[Interviewer]: Okay. Well, we’ll conclude here, thank you very much for talking with me. I really appreciate your sharing your memories from those days with the Kent State shootings Oral History Project. Thank you, this concludes the interview. [Scott Layman]: Okay, very good.
*End of recording*
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