Transcription of the recorded statement of Jack Dorricott conducted by the Commission on KSU Violence.

[Unknown Speaker]: This is July 22nd, 1970 and we’re talking to Jack Dorricott of the University School. Would you go ahead and just start, wherever you want?

[Jack Dorricott]: Well, I don’t know exactly just where to begin.

[Unknown Speaker]: Would it be better if we asked you questions?

[Jack Dorricott]: Yes, I think it would be.

[Unknown Speaker]: Alright. You have made a study of the rhetoric of the radicals on campus, as I understand. What are some of the conclusions that you may have drawn from the study?

[Jack Dorricott]: Well, the conclusions I’ve drawn are that the principle leadership is a dedicated group of revolutionaries who are very insistent upon carrying out their objectives, which are at least three-fold. But basically, their primary concern is to either close down this university or all universities and to destroy the establishment as they conceive it. However, they–from what I have been able to gather, they have no plan for replacing it with anything substantial.

Now, let me illustrate what I have just outlined, that what these young people are saying is that the establishment represents certain aspects, or ways of life, that they cannot subscribe to. And in order to bring the establishment to the ground, they have to–they have to hit where the establishment is most vulnerable, and it happens to be at the college or university level. They view the military as having this particular kind of grip or stranglehold over a segment of our society, and therefore, in order to get to the military, they must go through ROTC because ROTC supplies the majority of the officers in the military.

Secondly, since colleges and universities supply most of the business [administry?] with lower, middle, and upper-levels of management, if they can destroy the universities they can destroy the supply. And of course, there are other contingencies here. They’d like to get the campus police disarmed, they are very adamant about this because it impedes their progress. Of course, here on this campus they–one of their targets was the liquid crystals because they were of the opinion that liquid crystals were involved in certain aspects of the Vietnam War. Now those are–this is some of the over-riding objections and targets and–but, as I said at the beginning, these people are dedicated revolutionaries. They subscribe to a variety of philosophies, starting with Marx and Lenin coming down to Mao Tse-tung and with contemporary Marcuse. And the nihilistic philosophy of which they subscribe–are negative in nature and they are out to destroy.

[Unknown Speaker]: Now, in gathering your data, have you attended meetings? Have you sought out some of these radicals?

[Jack Dorricott]: Yes, I have been in many meetings with the leadership, starting with Rick Erickson and his wife, with Colin Neiburger and Jeffrey Powell, and Howard Emmer. I have been in on many, many meetings listening to these people explain their position and what, exactly, they’re going to do.

[Unknown Speaker]: Can you recall the first meeting you attended?

[Jack Dorricott]: The very first meeting–it would have to go back to the fall of 1967.

[Unknown Speaker]: What was the occasion and where was the meeting held?

[Jack Dorricott]: The occasion was a rallying conference that the local SDS chapter had called to come out in support of the Black United Students’ demands at that time. It was held on campus.

[Unknown Speaker]: Now, was your presence noticed by these people, and how did they accept your presence?

[Jack Dorricott]: Yes, they did notice my presence. Of course, I was looked upon with suspicion. They didn’t know whether I was from the administration, or security, or from what point of view.

[Unknown Speaker]: How did you handle this?

[Jack Dorricott]: I just ignored them, hoping they would ignore me.

[Unknown Speaker]: If you continued going to meetings, what, then, was your relationship with these people?

[Jack Dorricott]: Well, finally I was approached in one meeting at the Universalist Church in Fairlawn in Akron, by these people, and asked, very bluntly, ‘what was my intent, what was I doing?’ And I told them I was strictly there viewing this from a research point of view.

[Unknown Speaker]: What did they say?

[Jack Dorricott]: Well, of course, they like publicity and they immediately tried to seize upon if this was going to be done for a publication or for the news media or something like that.

[Unknown Speaker]: Alright. Where did we say that first meeting was held, physically? Where was it?

[Jack Dorricott]: This first meeting? It was here on campus.

[Unknown Speaker]: Where on campus?

[Jack Dorricott]: It was over here around the Union.

[Unknown Speaker]: Alright. Was it outside?

[Jack Dorricott]: Yes, it was outside.

[Unknown Speaker]: Alright, do you recall the second meeting you attended? Or can you–is there a subsequent meeting that comes to mind?

[Jack Dorricott]: Well, really there have been so many. I’ve been to the ones on campus, the ones at the church here over on–is it Gobbler?--down in the park, meetings on campus. Even at one time in one of the courses I’m taking, the professor invited some of these people in and discussed it in class with regular students.

[Unknown Speaker]: What course was that?

[Jack Dorricott]: This was a course in Society and–Speech and Society.

[Unknown Speaker]: Who was the instructor?

[Jack Dorricott]: Dr. Gorden

[Unknown Speaker]: What was his purpose of having the SDS in class, did he say?

[cross talk in the background]

[Jack Dorricott]: To–I would imagine–

[Unknown Speaker]: [Unintelligible]

[Jack Dorricott]: To present their particular side of the argument.

[Unknown Speaker]: Alright, now, at the various meetings you have attended, can you identify any–first of all, besides the students you have identified, can you identify any others by name?

[Jack Dorricott]: Other students by name?

[Unknown Speaker]: Yes.

[long pause]

[Jack Dorricott]: I must admit, I was not too concerned with, you know, identity of individuals per say. It was just that I happened to know some of these people from sight–by sight.

[Unknown Speaker]: Can you identify any other faculty members that attended any of the meetings which you attended.

[Jack Dorricott]: Yes.

[End of Tape 1]

[Beginning of Tape 2]

[Unknown Speaker]: Tape two.

[Jack Dorricott]: Other faculty members?

[Unknown Speaker]: Tape two.

[crosstalk in the background]

[Jack Dorricott]: From the Art Department? Of which I’m doing graduate work. [unintelligible]. Dr. Monroe, Dr. Tompkins. Others from other departments. I don’t really know whether he has a PhD or not, but [unintelligible] sociology.

[Unknown Speaker]: Alright, excuse me, [unintelligible]. Did he ever take an active part in any of the meetings or was he more or less an observer also?

[Jack Dorricott]: No, more of an active part than just an observer.

[Unknown Speaker]: To what nature–could you go into any more detail?

[Jack Dorricott]: Well, on many of these occasions, usually, it always came to the point that this organization needed money and that they were always soliciting for funds. And some of these people would always take an active part in going around trying to–like passing the hat or soliciting funds.

[Unknown Speaker]: And he’d be one that would pass the hat?

[Jack Dorricott]: Yes, he would be one that would contribute or help pass the hat.

[Unknown Speaker]: And who else would have been in that category? Do you know anyone else?

[Jack Dorricott]: Oh, let’s see. I don’t know these people really by name. I believe some of them were graduate students. I’m trying to think back who some of these–no. Oh.

[recording resumes after a short break]

[Unknown Speaker]: Alright, go ahead.

[Jack Dorricott]: He’d asked about other than–I think, or, I had moved on to other than faculty. I have seen–and I don’t know them by name–graduate students, both masters and PhD. But I could not identify–well, one graduate student would be–he’s a neighbor of mine, two doors down the street. He’s sympathetic and has been in meetings.

[Unknown Speaker]: And what is his name?

[Jack Dorricott]: Her name is [Beakham?].

[Unknown Speaker]: What–I don’t know if you’ve been asked this–what part did various faculty members play in this–

[crosstalk]

[Unknown Speaker]: –you’ve asked that. Just a minute–are you–do you know of any faculty members who acted as advisors to this group?

[Jack Dorricott]: I know of sympathies, and as I mentioned before, in the collection of money. Because they always came in meetings, especially with public. They always came to the point, well, “We need money for this, that, and the other thing,” and they’d always pass the hat. And some of these people would take a role in either helping pass the hat, or be the first one to make a donation.

[Unknown Speaker]: Could you identify these people who took an active role in finance?

[Jack Dorricott]: The names I’ve already mentioned previously that I’ve seen in meetings would be taking an active role and also contributing.

[Unknown Speaker]: Alright, were there any other faculty, then, that may have just come occasionally, or maybe once, and then not come again?

[Jack Dorricott]: From time to time there would be, but I wouldn’t know them because I don’t know their identity.

[Unknown Speaker]: Alright.

[Unknown Speaker]: Was the leadership of the organization apparently in the hands of one individual, or did it seem to be run basically by the group?

[Jack Dorricott]: No, in all of the meetings that I attended, although there were several people supposedly top-level leadership--whenever the going got sticky or audience questions got difficult, it usually reverted back to Rick Erickson would be the one who would take it and run with the ball, because he was the most vocal, the most fluent, and the most knowledgeable in at least the SDS world.

[Unknown Speaker]: What about Howie Emmer?

[Jack Dorricott]: He was more of an excitable type of leader–the kind that was trying to motivate people in action. But it seemed to me that the real brains and the real thinking through of all the problems came from [unintelligible].

[Unknown Speaker]: Can you identify people from outside Kent who may have attended any of these meetings?

[Jack Dorricott]: Outsiders? I always had a feeling I–some that were in attendance, I didn’t know whether they were students, faculty, or outsiders. They were strangers, I didn’t–I couldn’t identify them.

[Unknown Speaker]: Were outsiders ever introduced and did they ever take a leading role in individual meetings?

[Jack Dorricott]: On one occasion, there was an outsider in–I don’t know who it was–it was a rather–a very vociferous, excitable, middle-aged fellow from–but this was at an Akron meeting I had gone to. I don’t know what his name was, but he was almost like a cheerleader, getting up and trying to excite the crowd. This is prior to the contribution.

[Unknown Speaker]: Did you go to any meetings after the four were jailed–were there any meetings you attended?

[Jack Dorricott]: Yes, I went to another meeting in Akron while some were in jail and some were out.

[Unknown Speaker]: Who led that meeting?

[Jack Dorricott]: Erickson and his wife led that meeting.

[Unknown Speaker]: So he was still out of jail?

[Jack Dorricott]: Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]: At the meeting, were you ever there when any plans were made for any of the disruptions that occurred on the campus?

[Jack Dorricott]: No, nothing specific, but they were all the time saying, “This has to go, we’ve got to destroy, we’ve got to get rid of this,” but no specific plans as to what they were going to do.

[Unknown Speaker]: And they never made or revealed plans in open meetings?

[Jack Dorricott]: Not–none that I attended.

[Unknown Speaker]: Do these names mean anything to you? Bresnahan?

[Jack Dorricott]: I’m a good friend of Chet Williams, and I’ve had discussions with Chet, and it might have been in discussions with him because I’ve talked with him at length about the outside influence that moved in because Kent had been targeted as a site for disruption. It sounds familiar, but if I’d heard it, it might have come through that source.

[Unknown Speaker]: Hammond?

[Jack Dorricott]: No.

[Unknown Speaker]: Russell? Stamps?

[Unknown Speaker]: Do you recall any of the students who were shot being at any of those meetings?

[Jack Dorricott]: Not as principals–they might have been in background, but not as principals. See, I was only mainly interested in really the top leadership of the local SDS.

[Unknown Speaker]: What would you estimate the size of the crowd at the–at an average meeting?

[Jack Dorricott]: At an average meeting? Forty to fifty.

[End of Tape 2]

[Beginning of Tape 3]

[Unknown Speaker]: The question that was just asked was how many were in an average SDS meeting. And that answer would be?

[crosstalk]

[Jack Dorricott]: 40 or 50.

[Unknown Speaker]: The question was just answered.

[Unknown Speaker]: What are the patterns between–or the similarities and differences between Ohio State and Kent State and the radical organizations?

[Jack Dorricott]: Similarities? I would say that they’re greatly similar in the fact that you had a hard core of students on campus who were being aided and abetted either by outsiders or by faculty and graduate students. Pretty much the same pattern.

[Unknown Speaker]: Were the issues basically the same?

[Jack Dorricott]: Well, here is one thing that–it seems as if they’ve been very successful is that they will take local issues in which they can get general student support. Of course, a general [unintelligible] is the ROTC. But if they can pick up on various college campuses the same way with Ohio State–if they can pick up local problems that is a thorn in the side of students, which they can enlist student support, that’s where they’ll make that an issue on which to base their demonstration.

[Unknown Speaker]: Do you see–do you feel that Ohio State was as much of a target for SDS as Kent State has been?

[Jack Dorricott]: I couldn’t really answer that, because most of what I’ve done has–most of the work I’ve done has been here in the Kent community. I’ve got outside–outside of that, what little bit I’ve done at Ohio State, I couldn’t say whether there’s a greater emphasis at Ohio State or here. But just off the top of my head, of course I’m involved in this here, I would say that there is greater–probably a greater effort here at one time.

[Unknown Speaker]: What do you predict for the future?

[Jack Dorricott]: What do I predict? I predict that this–even in light of the tragedy that happened here at Kent, that we’re going to have continued campus unrest and disturbances. As long as we have this militant, dedicated group of revolutionaries that have objectives in mind.

[Unknown Speaker]: Have there been any meetings this summer to the best of your knowledge?

[Jack Dorricott]: The best of my knowledge? Not to my knowledge. I’ve had hearsay on that there has had–that there’s been problems or that there might be problems or meetings.

[Unknown Speaker]: Do you know who is in control of the organization right now?

[Jack Dorricott]: This is–I have been trying to get my finger on that since, well, the leadership here has pretty much been under wraps with going to court and being in jail. It’s kind of–the thing has kind of dissipated and I haven’t been able to find exactly which direction. Of course the split of the SDS last summer has made SDS a little more difficult to–because they’re split into a militant faction the ones who want violence, they want a confrontation–and to the less militant faction.

[Unknown Speaker]: Which do we have here?

[Jack Dorricott]: We have the militant.

[Unknown Speaker]: We have the Weathermen here. Do you feel that from the size of the demonstrations that we had on campus May 1st through the 4th, it was strictly a local character, or the members were strictly of a local character, or were there have had to have been outsiders that have the size–presence–

[Jack Dorricott]: You’re asking my opinion?

[Unknown Speaker]: Yes, I’m just asking your opinion.

[Jack Dorricott]: Okay, my opinion is that–and I’ve been trying to get a lead on this and track this down–but my opinion is that this was more than just local. There were organizers–I would say organizers that were brought in from the outside.

[Unknown Speaker]: Were you on campus?

[Jack Dorricott]: Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]: And you did see people that were involved?

[Jack Dorricott]: I saw people involved, yes.

[Unknown Speaker]: Did you see familiar faces and faces that weren’t familiar?

[Jack Dorricott]: Yes, yes, definitely.

[Unknown Speaker]: And did you see–the faces that you did know, were they oftentimes the leaders at some of these meetings or were they more or less the bystanders?

[Jack Dorricott]: One familiar face popped up–Erickson.

[Unknown Speaker]: You saw Erickson? Where?

[Jack Dorricott]: This was not on campus, this was over on Main and–around Main and Lincoln, or in that area.

[Unknown Speaker]: And was he with anyone?

[Jack Dorricott]: Yeah, he was in a group.

[Unknown Speaker]: Of the people who were involved?

[Jack Dorricott]: Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]: Did you see Howie Emmer any time?

[Jack Dorricott]: No, just Erickson.

[Unknown Speaker]: And did you stop to watch about how long he was there, or if he–

[Jack Dorricott]: Well, he was in a group that was moving. He was moving.

[Unknown Speaker]: He was moving with the group, so he was part of the group [unintelligible]. Do you have any feelings or thoughts that Rick might still be in command here?

[Jack Dorricott]: I don’t think he ever gave up command. But I think the–his organization kind of was–it’s been dissipated to court action, to the action the university is taking away the SDS’s right to be a campus organization and so on and so forth.

[Unknown Speaker]: If it has dissipated, why did we have what happened here this May?

[Jack Dorricott]: Because we have more than just really SDS.

[Unknown Speaker]: What do we have besides SDS?

[Jack Dorricott]: Well, you have the dissidents, the militants. Not necessarily that will subscribe to the SDS, primarily, but they are sympathetic, but they do not necessarily belong to the group.

[Unknown Speaker]: In other words, they would just be more or less militant individuals, but not so much members of a group.

[Jack Dorricott]: Yes, right.

[Unknown Speaker]: Do you have any thoughts as to why these people are that way? Have you ever thought about that? Is it a new breed of individual?

[Jack Dorricott]: I think many of these people have been hoodwinked or disillusioned. First of all, they’re disillusioned and disappointed and some of them have been hoodwinked. They have been taken in and they believe the propaganda that they’re getting.

[Unknown Speaker]: I hate to keep asking you this–I should have thought of it at the time, but when did you see Rick Erickson with this group?

[Jack Dorricott]: This was the Sunday night when they tried to come on campus and they’re out there all around.

[Unknown Speaker]: After the burning of the ROTC Building?

[Unknown Speaker]: When we had the sit-in on Main Street?

[Jack Dorricott]: Yeah, the sit-in on Main Street.

[Unknown Speaker]: What solutions would you offer to help solve problems we’re faced with today?

[Jack Dorricott]: Oh my.

[End of Tape 3]

[Beginning of Tape 4]

[Unknown Speaker]: As far as solutions go.

[Jack Dorricott]: Solutions. I guess everybody has a solution, but the field that I’m in is primarily one of communication and this is an area that I think this University suffers. This is an area for communication–upward communication and downward communication and horizontal communication, and adequate communication. Personally, I think that the university has to be–has to get tougher when the students break the law, they have to suffer the consequences of breaking the law and I don’t think they should be shielded. I think we can point the accusing finger of universities being places where you are actually shielded.

As a fine example, on Monday of May 4th, I teach University School, High School. We had a bomb scare, we had to evacuate our building. We were out of our building better than an hour. They actually caught the girl who turned in the bomb scare–a senior in her own high school who had gone to one of the secretaries to borrow a dime to go out in the lobby of our own school to put in the call. And to this day I don’t know whether they did anything about that or not, turning her over to the authorities for prosecution, or whether they protected her and just said, “You naughty girl, you shouldn’t do that.”

Now, this is the kind of thing that I think is happening in too many cases across the country–that educational institutions have been protecting those who have actually breached the law. I am of the opinion that there’s a point beyond which–and in numbers alone–that a university ceases to be operational. It’s like the law of diminishing returns. I can’t envision a university of 20,000 of ever overcoming its major problems because of its size.

[Unknown Speaker]: What about the radicals, what do we do with them?

[Jack Dorricott]: Well, the radicals–again, we are guaranteed in this country to the right of public forums and the right of free speech, but by the same token, I think there is the responsibility that in a public forum that you permit both sides to be heard, and not just one side getting up and spitting out their venom without being challenged by their counterpart. So, we have a dialogue going back and forth here, so the audience doesn’t just get one point of view. In a forum, we should give the opportunity for both sides being heard.

[Unknown Speaker]: As you said before that you consider these–this group that we’re speaking of–revolutionaries planning on taking over the country. Do you feel that the rest of your colleagues feel this way? Do they realize that there is a revolutionary group attempting to take over the university by any means possible?

[Jack Dorricott]: Frankly, I don’t think very many of them think that way. They’re just not that concerned. They don’t believe that we would have a young group this dedicated.

[Unknown Speaker]: How far do you think the radicals will go?

[Jack Dorricott]: To any length. To any length. When they say that they are going to shut down the university, I believe them. I think they’ve demonstrated that they can do that.

[Unknown Speaker]: Besides this one girl that you mentioned in the University School, do you see a problem beginning to develop there?

[Jack Dorricott]: Oh, yes, definitely. We have a very hard-core element in our school right now, the Student Mobilization Committee. You know, that’s the new militant group that has really taken over from the–I would call it defunct, but the SDS that broke up. We have a hard core and they tried to do some things this year at our school and since we have such really a liberal and an open school, they didn’t get too far with their demands because a lot of their demands are things we’ve already had in operations like no dress and so on. But, we definitely have a problem with the militant at that level.

[Unknown Speaker]: How is it being handled?

[Jack Dorricott]: Well, the administration at the University School has always been open and receptive. In other words, if a student has a gripe or a complaint, they come in and they listen to them. Every once in a while, like on April 14th when they were having a demonstration and this one boy came in, who was a member of the Student Mobilization Committee, came in and asked to put up these placards around the hall and he was told that he could put them up if they were approved by the committee who approves this and that wasn’t good enough for him, so he stormed out of the office and put them up anyhow. And so they had to go around and take them down. He wasn’t about to go through the normal process that is required.

[Unknown Speaker]: What was done with that student?

[Jack Dorricott]: What was done with that student? Frankly, I don’t know what kind of disciplinary action was administered, if any at all. But they have denied them at the University School–this hardcore group of the SMC–unlimited distribution of literature, denied them to a degree the use of office staff and machines to turn out their literature. They have offered them a public forum, only on the basis that I mentioned before, that the other side be presented at the same time. So far, they’ve been rather successful in keeping it under control. We had to establish a policy over there that no members from the outside who were allowed to come in–in other words, university students or outsiders, to come in to cross the line.

[Unknown Speaker]: How many members are there in the Student Mobilization Committee?

[Jack Dorricott]: In the high school? I would suppose there are–of the real dedicated, we have about 8 or 10.

[Unknown Speaker]: Are they generally faculty members’ children, or what type of homes do they come from?

[Jack Dorricott]: Yes and no.

[Unknown Speaker]: Kind of conglomerate of–

[Jack Dorricott]: Right.

[Unknown Speaker]: Do you wanna ask that again Mrs. Franklin?

[Doris Franklin]: Where did the local SDS get its money from? Volunteers, local contributions?

[Jack Dorricott]: From all that I have been able to observe is–I would say a majority of it comes from contributions. At least, they’re always making the pitch at every meeting that I’ve ever been to, “Will you contribute to our cause?” But then there are times that they seem to have a lot of money and then there are times that they seem desperate. Where this money other than contributions comes from, I couldn’t say.

[Doris Franklin]: Well, I don’t think any other–

[End of Tape 4] ×