Elisabeth Rogolsky, Oral History

 

Recorded: June 2, 2020

Interviewed by: Kathleen Siebert Medicus

Transcribed by the Kent State University Research & Evaluation Bureau

 

[Interviewer]: This is Kathleen Siebert Medicus speaking on Tuesday, June 2, 2020, in Kent, Ohio. As part of the May 4 Kent State Shootings Oral History Project, we are recording an Oral History interview over the telephone today; in fact, we are recording it internationally. I’m speaking with a woman who lives in Guatemala now. Could you please state your name for the recording?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: My name is Elisabeth Rogolsky, but when I was a student at Kent, my name, that was known universally, was “Stretch” and my registration name was Betty Rogolsky. But everyone knew me as Stretch.

 

[Interviewer]: Everyone knew you as Stretch?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: It was even in the yearbook as “S. Rogolsky.”

 

[Interviewer]: Were you a basketball player? Is there a story behind that?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: No, I’m actually 4’ 9”, so it was one of those ironic names that were given to me that seemed to be extremely significant in my life.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:01:17] Could we begin with just some brief information about you, about your background? Could you tell us where you were born, where you grew up?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: I was born [audio cuts out] (unintelligible [00:01:26]) Ohio. I went to [audio cuts out] high school and graduated in ‘67 and then, the following fall, I started at Kent. My major was (unintelligible [00:01:42]) and recreation and I had a double minor in dance and psychology.

 

[Interviewer]:  You know what, I think our call is breaking up a little bit already, so let’s pause here and I’ll call you right back.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Why don’t I call you on my cellphone, which is usually more reliable.

 

[Interviewer]: Sounds good, thank you.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: All right, bye.

 

[Interviewer]: Thanks. Let’s begin again, if I could just ask some brief information about you, about your background. [00:02:18] Could you tell us where you were born and where you grew up?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: I was born in Toledo, Ohio, and that’s where I grew up. I went to DeVilbiss High School. I graduated in 1967 and then started at Kent in the fall of ’67. I majored in health, physical education and recreation and I had a dance and psychology minor, double minor.

 

[Interviewer]: Dance and psychology? Is that what you said?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yes, dance. Within the College of Health and Physical Education, you had a concentration within that, and so, my concentration was dance.

 

[Interviewer]: Where did you live when you were a freshman? You were in the dorms that first year?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yes, I lived at Allyn Hall. I don’t know if it’s still there or not.

 

[Interviewer]: Do you have any memories from those first couple years at Kent State that you’d like to share? Kind of just what life on campus was like?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Sure. I went to Kent because I was interested in the gymnastics team and, my freshman year, I was on the gymnastics team. Not a star by any means. I really enjoyed it and I’d always been athletic and I really loved gymnastics. But I found that my passion really moved toward dance and so, by sophomore year, I had left the gymnastics team and moved into a much stronger focus of being involved with the dance community. Being a freshman, we did in fact have to wear those little beanies, I remember those little beanies.

 

[Interviewer]: The beanies, yes.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah, we did have them.

 

[Interviewer]: And you did it your first year? You “dinked” and everything?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah, yeah. I was fairly compliant my freshman year with those kinds of social norms, though I wasn’t at all interested in sorority or fraternity life, was active in my dorm. One of my freshman roommates and I are still in contact and, in fact, we saw each other in the fall. I guess I could add that I currently live in Guatemala and have for a number of years. I met up with one of my college roommates, as I say, when I was in Texas in the fall.

 

[Interviewer]: Wow, fifty-year reunion, or more, from 1967.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah, yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:05:51] Were you very aware of anti-war protests or civil rights protests those first couple of years on campus?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah, yes and I was involved starting during the coming back to Kent at the beginning of ’68, fall term of ’68 and the Democratic Convention had major protests. Even in the freshman year, in the spring, there were beginning to be protests about the war on campus. I was involved in those. And then, my sophomore year, I moved to Tri-Towers and my roommate was Sandra Scheuer. Though we were very different in terms of activism—I was becoming more and more active in political and social action movements. Sandy was just really focused on being dedicated, a dedicated student. She was an excellent student and she also had a strong connection with the sorority she was involved with. So, we shared a connection of our Jewish upbringing and both being actively Jewish and friends, but we definitely had different political focuses.

 

And many people have reported that the horribly ironic and tragic aspect of Sandy’s death is that she was indeed just going to class. That was more than bad, that was more than bad.

 

[Interviewer]: You were roommates that year? Your sophomore year, ’68 to ’69?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah. And then, my memory is that the following year, she moved to the sorority house and I moved off campus. That’s my memory is that she was in the sorority and we would connect and hang out, but we were no longer living as roommates.

 

[Interviewer]: But you stayed in touch even though you were active in very different kind of areas in campus life.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah, yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: Were you involved in particular student organizations at the time, your sophomore, junior year?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: I was involved at Hillel in that way. Sandy and I would connect. Mainly, I was just involved in the dance community and, especially starting sophomore year, involved kind of in the music scene. I hung out with a lot of folk musicians, though I wasn’t a singer myself. I was one of those participants of. The coffee house scene was really pretty active and there were some classic coffee houses off campus where there was live music happening.  

 

[Interviewer]: Do you remember any specific names or places of these coffee houses?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: You know, can see it, but—

 

[Interviewer]: Was Captain Brady’s a place where there was music? That was closer to campus. Is that what it was called?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: I don’t remember that. What I remember is it was a converted house and I think it was in the basement. If my memory—I want to say the Brown Jug? I have no idea if that’s correct or not.

 

[Interviewer]: But it was off campus, maybe in the downtown area?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: It was off campus. Not in the—no, closer, closer to campus.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay. More in a neighborhood off campus?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: Both the Hillel and the dance communities were strong and active groups?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: For me, yeah. In terms of the dance community, that’s what our focus was—was dance rehearsals. And just like it was for gymnastics, it was gymnastics practice. That same idea.

 

[Interviewer]: And was this predominately modern dance and were you performing?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: It was, though because of my dance concentration, my classes were in all forms of dance. The actual performance pieces were more in the realm of modern dance. Interestingly, my primary dance instructor, who was the modern dance teacher, later was my dance teacher once again when I was in graduate school at the University of Oregon. In the course of that time period, between when I left Kent and went back to graduate school, she had accepted a position at the University of Oregon, so I got to dance with her again.

 

[Interviewer]: Seems like the odds against that happening would be pretty high. So, you described yourself as being active politically and involved in the anti-war protests at the time. Are there any particular rallies or protests that stand out in your mind that you’d like to describe for us?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Well, before the May ’70 protests, the strongest memory I actually have is also protesting about the Anti-Apartheid movement, was also very strong then. There were definitely rallies around that, including the occupation of one of the speech buildings, I think? I was involved with that because that was a horrible injustice. And now, I have to, I guess, editorialize—here we’re seeing our own country going through that, the upheaval of disparity of judging people based on skin color and the horrible repercussions it causes. So, it’s a continual struggle and I grew up with really strong values of social justice, I think, from my Judaism. That informed how I acted. As I grew just from dialoguing from high school discussions about the hypothetical situations to then finding myself with the opportunity to become actively engaged in social justice. So, there were certainly protests around when the draft went into effect and draft card burning and those kinds of things. And concurrently, also in those times, were women’s liberation. And so, there were certainly gatherings and demonstrations around our rights as women to be who we are. It was an incredible time and, of course, the music scene was huge—impact and responsive to what was going on during those times.  

 

[Interviewer]: That was all tied in with it and it was an important part of student’s lives. Can you paint the picture for us of what you saw happening at the Speech Building at that rally, the sit-in? Were you inside the building?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: I was and what I remember is, first, we were outside the building and then, a door got opened and we, pretty [much] as a crowd, rushed in and then just sat on the floor waiting to talk to people. I wasn’t arrested, per se, but as we were taken out, there were a lot of, “This is going to affect your life and you’re supposed to be good students” and that kind of lecturing and lack of acceptance of that we were, in fact, being politically active as is our right as American citizens. It was more like, “Bad boys, bad girls!”

 

[Interviewer]: You were reprimanded. How long did this go on? How long were you inside sitting? Was it more than a day?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: I don’t think so. I think it was more like hours. I don’t—yeah, that’s my memory, I’m thinking, it could be faulty for sure.

 

[Interviewer]: It’s been a while. But you saw other people being arrested?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Other people could get arrested, yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: Were you aware of the, did you see the Black United Students walkout of 1968? Were you involved in that or you witnessed that? Do you have any memories from that time?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: No, other than I had friends who were members of that and just were there in solidarity with them, in observance, but not actively engaged except as a support.

 

[Interviewer]: So, you had some friends who were members of BUS and they must have been sharing with you their experiences on campus?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah. Not a lot, but some. I knew about some. Kind of the difference in our struggles, they were different struggles.

 

[Interviewer]: Interesting, yeah.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: And connected at the same time.

 

[Interviewer]: I’m curious about your family at this point. [00:19:35] Was your family aware that you were involved in that sit-in? Were they talking with you about the protests? Were they concerned?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: They did not like my activism. They believed that it was—one was an activist, but a polite and conforming activist, I guess is perhaps the best way to say it. So, I did my best not to let them know exactly what was going on in my life. It would have not made them happy.

 

[Interviewer]: Were they, did you have a sense they were also just concerned for your safety in addition to—?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Oh, yeah. That was paramount, that was paramount. That was the paramount issue. In fact, skipping ahead a little bit, speaking with my sister who was living at home at that time, she said she came home on May 4^th from her job and my mother was just ashen because they had just announced that a woman from Ohio had been killed and had not been named. I had spoken to them over those four days to let them know I was okay. But, at that point, they didn’t know anything. So, yeah, they were petrified.  

 

[Interviewer]: How did you get back and forth home to Toledo? Did you have a car, or did your parents drive you to campus?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: I didn’t have a car. And so, I would either, depending, like at the beginning of the school year or break, my parents would come and get me. Or I had some friends who lived in Toledo who also had cars and I would catch rides with them. And sometimes, the bus, actually.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:22:23] I think at this point, I would ask, leading up to May 4, 1970, what your perception of the relationship between community members in the city of Kent and people involved with Kent State and students were? And was the mood changing as time went on and the war was ramping up, et cetera?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: I don’t have much memory of it ramping up. I had a friend whose boyfriend was a Kent resident and his family had a small business. I would hear from her that they were getting pretty upset by students’ actions and thought that that was out of line. But, in terms of my own personal going into town, I didn’t turn 18 until second quarter because I’m a December birthday. So, going down where there was 3.2 beer at that point, not that I was a big drinker, but then you could legally drink at 18 and mainly going out to dance and listen to music. I didn’t notice that difficulty myself.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:24:20] Was there anything changing in the environment of your classes that you noticed going from ’69 to 1970?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Well, I think, in terms of my classes, because of my career track or my minors and majors, they were mainly pretty liberal professors and instructors. And so, we were looking like people of the Sixties generation, long hair, bell-bottoms, peace symbols, all those things were daily wear at that time. And especially in the dance community, that and leotards. It was pretty much what was happening and I never remember being called out or anything like that by any of my professors.

 

In fact, again moving forward, our—Janet Descutner by name, who was the modern dance department head, was really trying to talk about the issues with us. That was important because, well, obviously, she was older—she wasn’t that much older. She and her husband were maybe in their late twenties, early thirties I’m thinking at that time, but I don’t know for sure. So, still able to connect to us, certainly not much older, that’s got to be true. Able to relate to us but, also, were adults out there in the world. So, she offered a really helpful perspective.  

 

[Interviewer]: And those were pretty engaging? Everyone really engaged in those discussions, I’m guessing. They were very pertinent?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: I think so and because of where I lived, especially, junior year and, even more so, my senior year, I was actually her neighbor. So, I would hang out there. So, yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: So, she was a mentor, in a way, it sounds like?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah, she was a mentor. That’s an excellent word for it. She was my mentor, indeed.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:27:45] At this point, do you want to start wherever you’d like with your memories of the days leading up to the shootings, like the weekend before, April 30^th, when Nixon announced the escalation of the war in Cambodia? Wherever you’d like to start.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Well, clearly, we all heard that on Thursday. And then, on Friday, there was the rally at the [Victory] Bell to protest the invasion into Cambodia, which, I was there. I wasn’t one of the people burning the Constitution, but I was observing and supporting that idea. Not, I think, as the, Down with the United States, but in his [Nixon’s] blatant misappropriation of power. That was what it was about. It wasn’t that we wanted to bring down the United States. It was that, You’re not acting within accordance to the Constitution. That’s how I viewed it, anyway.

 

[Interviewer]: There were several speakers at that rally. Were the speeches really passionate, really interesting for you? Do you remember them?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: No, I really don’t. I remember there were speakers that, of course, everyone was engaged and active, for sure, but I don’t remember.

 

[Interviewer]: Was it a pretty big crowd?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: I’d only be guessing. I would just call it—there were a significant number of people. That’s what I could say. And I was there with many of my cohort, my friends.

 

[Interviewer]: What do you remember next after that rally on Friday?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: I do not remember going downtown on Friday night. I don’t remember that piece. The next day, I was involved at the ROTC Building, for sure, actively involved. I felt justified and supported in those actions because of the symbolicness of that building. At that time, ROTC represented what was happening in Vietnam and what was happening in Vietnam were atrocities perpetrated by the U.S. Military. But also atrocities, in my opinion, emotionally being inflicted on the soldiers, and a war that, in my opinion, was unjust and unfair. Though I had friends from high school who enlisted and went, everybody I knew at school who was concerned about their draft number, at that point, all the men had draft numbers, and what they were going to do about that decision. That was it. So, I actively engaged in that action and that was probably the first tear gassing. I did call my parents after that and let them know that I had been tear gassed, but I was okay. I really believed that I was doing the right thing.

 

[Interviewer]: Can you describe what you saw and heard at the ROTC Building? There are so many different accounts of it. It’s always good to record what you remember seeing and hearing.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Well, mainly what I remember is: I would say that I did not engage in actively starting the fire, but I actively engaged in preventing the water being taken to the fire. I felt justified in doing that. There was a strong sense of comradery in all of the activity to prevent the fire from being put out and, obviously, a lot of high passion on both sides.

 

[Interviewer]: So, you were pulling the hoses? Did you see people cutting the hoses? And then, I’m wondering, were there any police or National Guard there, backing up the fire fighters? Or was it just the fire fighters, at that point, that were there?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: I’m really combing my memory because I really pretty much been in isolation with these memories. I haven’t had conversations with people. So, I know—

 

[Interviewer]: I’ve just heard so many opposing viewpoints where people say, “Those fire hoses are impossible to cut.” So, I guess that would be maybe my main question I’m curious about. If people were actually able to cut open the fire hoses from your memory, if you remember?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah, I remember more pulling, pulling and yanking at the hoses. That’s—

 

[Interviewer]: Pulling them back away?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]:

Yeah. If I stretch, I mean I’m really kind of stretching my mind’s eye, did I see people stronger than myself having pulled? Possible.

 

[Interviewer]: But your involvement was pulling the hoses away and pulling them back?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah. I mean, definitely there so I wouldn’t say that it wasn’t possible that some other people had things to try and if not, cut through the hose, at least put holes in the hose. That seems like something I might have done. I don’t think I could have cut the hose, but I could see myself, if somebody gave me something to punch, I would’ve been doing that.

 

[Interviewer]: And then, how did things end? Do you remember when you left or what was happening when you and your friends decided to leave?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: My memory is that there was tear gas.

 

[Interviewer]: Oh, the tear gas, right, of course. How did I forget? I’m sorry.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: That’s my memory. And I didn’t—we ran to Tri-Towers. So, I was at Tri-Towers and that’s where I called my parents from, to let them know I was okay.

 

[Interviewer]: Do you remember anything else from Saturday night?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Well, we felt really victorious, I will say. We celebrated that we, quote-un-quote, won a victory against the idea of the military complex. So, it was pretty celebratory—once getting cleaned up from the tear gas and stuff. That was not pleasant, but—

 

[Interviewer]: And no one was injured other than that? Other than the tear gas?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: No. And then the next day, it was pretty. It was a pretty day. That’s that famous day when Allison [Krause] put the flower in the soldier’s rifle and people were trying to engage in positive ways. It wasn’t received very well. Those guys were so tense. We had the advantage of having the ability to let down, relax—so, that was kind of the atmosphere during the day. Then, being totally outraged with the [university] administration and their abdication of our campus. So, part of that gathering and sit-down on Main Street, also waiting for President White, who never appeared, to come and talk, and be engaged with us.  

 

[Interviewer]: So, you were part of that group sitting in the street?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: Did that get scary at any certain point?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: That got pretty scary, that got pretty scary. Again, with the tear gas and just feeling totally under siege. And it’s that historic thing, okay—those rocks versus tear gas, bottles versus tear gas. I personally was not involved in any of that, but that always is like—we were afraid for our lives. That argument that comes up that just never, never—it was such a natural state that nobody’s life was in danger, from my perspective.

 

Then, again, I ended up back at Tri-Towers instead of going home because they pushed everybody back on campus. I do have a really clear memory of—Jeff [Jeffrey Miller] was part of that group and we were just having a great time, listening to music, hanging out, and yeah.

 

So, the next day, I don’t know if I even had any classes Monday morning, but I know I was at The Commons between 11:30 and 12:00. Then, for me, that time period was very unreal with the back and forth between the ordering to disband and us saying we’re not going to disband and them starting to come forward and tear gas again. I remember running up the hill and then hearing what I sure was firecrackers, firecrackers. And then, people running and them—me getting caught up in that running until I was back down on The Commons. At that point, Jerry [Lewis] began to try and separate us from the Guard and I still don’t think I was aware that people had been shot, at that point. I did not know that. I just knew that they were marching toward us and it was very threatening. I became really aware of—I’m going to take a pause and get some water.

 

[Interviewer]: Sure, yeah.

 

This is Kathleen Siebert Medicus and we are back after a short break. So, Elisabeth, you were talking about you had run back down, you were on The Commons, and you weren’t aware, quite yet, at that point, that people had been shot. Do I have that right?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Right, that’s right. But what I was aware of is that the Guard was moving toward us, and I was also really aware of the many, many people that were milling around, just watching and really not there as protesting the war, but just kind of watchers. It was at that point that I made an armband for myself as Jerry had had an armband on, talking about professor Lewis, as he was trying to negotiate. And I began just pleading with people to please leave, to get off The Commons if they weren’t there because they were dedicated to the reason to be there because we didn’t know what would happen.

 

I wasn’t alone, there were certainly other people doing that too, but I think it spoke to the conviction of what I would say the core group—that we were interested and dedicated to the protest of the war and all of its implications, but also, that if you weren’t with us, then please leave because that made us actually much more dangerous and being in danger because, then, there wasn’t a common purpose for being there. That was really important to me to remove bystanders. 

 

[Interviewer]: And that was successful? People were listening?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: People did leave, yeah. People did leave. Then, the group of professors were able to back off the Guard and we were, of course, ordered to disperse. And, as I was leaving, that’s when I started hearing that people were shot, as I was heading off campus to go to my house. And I stopped at the Descutners’ because their house was before mine and I just, you know—hysterically crying, “How could it be live ammunition? How could there be live ammunition?” And them saying, “How could there not be live ammunition? That was what the National Guard did.” And kind of consoling me in my naivete.

 

And then, I got to my house, and then the phone rang, and that’s when I learned that Sandy was one of those people. So, I didn’t know that and now—and I, as you said as we talked before—and I am having a memory and it may be that Sandy, in fact, wasn’t living at the sorority house but was actually maybe living with another person, a woman from Toledo. And that’s who called me. Then, there was just lots and lots and lots of confusion and wanting to get to the funeral, to Sandy’s funeral. Because of all the confusion, I—I’m going to have to stop again.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay, let’s pause.

 

This is Kathleen Siebert Medicus and we are back again after a brief pause. Go ahead, Elisabeth.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: So, what I remember, and I do have, definitely, gaps. But what I remember is getting in the car with friends and eventually getting to Youngstown and arriving after—because we were off campus, we had more time to leave. So, this was now the next day, so the 5^th, and we got to the shul and we had missed the service. Everybody was coming out and one of my good friends, who was a really good friend of Jeff—that’s when I found out that Jeff had been killed. I didn’t know that until I was at Sandy’s.

 

My sister tells me that I stayed in Youngstown at Sandy’s grandparents’ house for a couple of days. I don’t have memory of that, myself. I don’t have much memory of what happened in that very early part, but that I got a ride back to Toledo. But she said it was a couple of days later and it was from—at that point, then I became enraged and became a speaker at University of Toledo demonstrations and at Bowling Green demonstrations and with every intention of going to the march on Washington.

 

Events happened that I ended up not going to Washington, but then, just staying really engaged in the Toledo area. One irony, which I think was also emblematic of the disinformation that was being perpetuated about the students and the outside agitators—to me, with my own eyes, I never saw happening—was that my mother got a call from one of my older cousins who was like a good half a, well, probably a full generation older than I, reporting to my mother that I had been recorded saying, “Death to all judges.” Or something outrageous like that, which was totally malicious and made up, but he had heard me saying that quote-un-quote, “on some radio.” Which, of course, I had never said. My uncle was a judge. Just within my own family, the divisiveness that started to grow between the “older,” quote-un-quote, generation and me. That was very real, that was very real.   

 

[Interviewer]: Did your mother believe you with that story? Do you have a sense?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: I think my parents did believe me, but they also really, really didn’t like what I was doing. They really didn’t like that. From a safety perspective, for sure, but just like that’s not what—we don’t act like that. And I was very, very, very committed at that point to doing everything I could to stop the war.

 

As Kent [State] shut down, it shut down not only classes, but other things as well, which for me, was—I was supposed to be going to, I can’t remember frankly now if it was Utah or Nevada, for a dance intensive, and that, of course, got cancelled. So, that was a really big disappointment on my personal ambitions and desires. Not that I ever thought I was going to be a professional dancer, but it was my passion. So, that summer, I had been a camp counselor for years but, of course, by then, I wasn’t going to be a camp counselor because I was going to go—be doing this intensive in the West. But I was, at that time, working at a YMCA camp, and they gave me an office job so I would have some focus during the summer. I was a terrible typist, but they kept me anyway. So, I did that for the summer.

 

[Interviewer]: So, you stayed in Toledo through that summer?

 

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah, I stayed in Toledo and then I went back to school in the fall. Again living off campus, but this time in a different housing situation. I was actually living in the famous Joe Walsh house, the red house on the corner across from campus with three other women. None of whom—they just, of course, rented rooms, so I didn’t know any of my roommates until we moved in and, obviously, we became good friends through all of that. Yeah. But it was—all that year was just, well, not all that year. One of the strong points that I remember was they did set up the Peace College and there was lots of opportunity to have dialogue within that unit and talk. The general administrative perspective was: life as usual. I’ve been trying to remember and I don’t have a memory of what happened that first year and the first four days of May in ’71. I don’t have any memory of it. 

 

[Interviewer]: You don’t remember if you went to the first commemoration or the vigil?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Okay, that’s what I mean, I don’t even remember if there were those things. If there were those things, then I would have been there. But I don’t have my memory of that, that that happened.

 

[Interviewer]: Was it difficult going near The Commons, or did you avoid that part of campus? Did you have difficulties that year after the shootings?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: I think what started to form in my mind was—and continued to be true for the next number of years—was never be in a group again. Because you can’t control it, you can’t control for the safety factors. And it wasn’t until the Eighties, actually, when I was in Oregon and the nuclear-armed White Trains, as they were called, were going through Oregon, that I became actively engaged again in going to demonstrations. I still did my own activism, but not in a group for those number of years.  

 

[Interviewer]: And that was a conscious decision for safety?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah. Too scary. Yeah, just too scary.

 

[Interviewer]: You were able to finish that year where, like you said, the administration wanted the university to continue, business as usual. So, in that sense, your classes were still happening, you were able to complete your majors, et cetera?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah, I actually ended up not graduating in June of ’71. Because of the double minor, I had extra course work to do. So, I was in summer school and then fall term, so I graduated in the fall term of ’71. And then I, I was going to say, and then I very quickly moved to Denver to get out on my own.

 

[Interviewer]: When you were home in Toledo that summer, were a lot of people asking you about your experiences? Did you feel like you were kind of a spokesman, you had to tell the story a lot? And obviously, you were attending protests, et cetera. But at home, in your neighborhood, was there—?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yes, definitely, very much, very much, very much. People all the time were talking to me and I was talking all the time to people whenever possible and wherever possible. Even though I had my day job, there was still plenty of time for me to be out and about, yeah. 

 

[Interviewer]: Is there anything else from that time, that summer after the shootings, or that last year or so at school, that you want to share? Any other memories that stick out?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Just pausing to think. Well, I didn’t say that when Sandy and I were roommates, I had gone with her to Youngstown for some weekends, and so, I felt like I knew her parents. So, I know I called every once in a while. I didn’t just check in. I didn’t do that because I really didn’t have a connection with Jeff’s family. So, I didn’t try and contact them. But I did speak to Sandy’s parents.

 

[Interviewer]: You stayed in contact with them?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah. Eventually, that lessened over time. But certainly, in those first years.

 

[Interviewer]: I know it must have been a huge comfort to them to have her friends be in touch and stay in contact and reach out to them, yeah. Such a shame you missed the service.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah. But it was really emblematic of the chaos.

 

[Interviewer]: Communication was difficult. A lot of phone lines were down. And this is obviously well before anyone had cell phones. Did you have a sense that her family was coping as well as could be expected? Was that reassuring for you and your friends?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Oh, they were just devastated. No, they weren’t, no. None of us were really coping.

 

[Interviewer]: Even more important to stay in touch.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah. And then, my closest cohort were from the East Coast and so, then it was just the geographics of people not connecting.

 

[Interviewer]: Jeffrey Miller was from New York City. There were a lot of students from the East Coast because they could get in-state tuition, so there was a lot of diversity in terms of what states people were from. Do you have any memories of your friendship with Jeff Miller that you’d like to share?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: We just hung in the same group of people. He was just a really, really, sweet guy. We were buddies, we were buddies. It was that time when there was just a lot of group cohesion and loving one another. 

 

[Interviewer]: You were all young, away from home for the first time, young adults.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Doing what young adults do and still do and are doing today. Hopefully, the good, right way. It’s interesting when I get a call from Kent from the students for the annual donation or whatever. Listening to these young voices and they often call me and start, pardon me, the pitch for my athletic perspective because I guess of the yearbook or whatever, but I very quickly have to turn the conversation to really what were the most important aspects. I’ve had some really profound conversations about my experience and their takeaways and what the May 4^th Commemoration activities mean to them. That’s the positive, that’s the positive, yeah. For a long time, I wasn’t really interested from an administrative perspective—long time. And the first time I went back was, actually, I took my husband in 2008, and I found it devastatingly bare and under—

 

[Interviewer]: You’re referring to the commemoration?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Right, the commemoration—just bare, yeah. So, I was really grateful to learn that they had—and then I just backed away again, frankly.

 

[Interviewer]: And that was the first time you’d been on campus since you graduated?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah. And I was—but I always have the pull around May 1^st. And so, by accident, when I called—or no, I went online to try and make a donation, in their memory and was appalled that I couldn’t find anything. I spent a long time talking to some people about that and thankfully, there was some change in that. And the commemoration virtually this year, of which I participated in all four days. I found it amazingly well done and the diversity of opinion and the diversity of the people that came together to do the commemoration was really healing. It was very healing to me. We don’t know what’s going to happen in days and year to come, but I made a commitment to myself to be on campus next—in 2021. 

 

[Interviewer]: As soon as we’re able to hold an in-person commemoration.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah, and who knows if that’s going to be in 2021 or 2022, we don’t know that now. But I had gone back and forth with thinking I was going to go this year and then had decided not to. And then, of course, I couldn’t have, but I’ve decided I will be there the next time.

 

[Interviewer]: I’m getting a feeling that you’re not alone in that sentiment, so I think there would be a lot of people returning as soon as they can, or when they can. And now, there’s the scholarship fund in memory of the four students who were killed, I think that’s what you were referring to.  

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yes, yeah. And that’s really important, that’s really important to me.

 

[Interviewer]: I agree, good. I guess I would just maybe ask in conclusion, at this point, if there’s anything you’d like to share about how these events have impacted your life kind of over the long term of your life, your career, decisions you made along the way in your adult life? If there’s anything there you’d like to share.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]:  Well, there’s no question, whether from the exterior, or not, from the interior, everything I act out in my commitment to social action comes from Kent. I had the opportunity a number of years ago, I was living in Portland at the time, and I had a friend who was finishing his doctorate in history and took a teaching—his first position was at Buena Vista College in Iowa. It was a small—it was a state school, but it was small and very insular. They had a lot of resources to bring in outside enrichment types of programming and so he invited me to come and speak about Kent.

 

I was there for a long weekend and I not only spoke, but I also did a dance performance about it. It was the first time I had the opportunity to talk to—those students were children of men who had gone to Vietnam, who had had the experience of coming back and being called, “Baby killers.” Who had had the experience of being disenfranchised on their return and I, of course, was coming from a very different perspective. It was a very, very powerful exchange and dialogue. And ability to listen, for me, it first and foremost, to be able to listen to those students and their experience through their, primarily, fathers’ eyes. And them being able to see, I think especially through the dance piece, my experience of what was going on, for me, at that time. That trying to talk about—it was never about the individual soldier being bad. It was always about, from my perspective, the individual soldier being put in an untenable situation. And my personal experience of losing someone very close to me, not during the war, he got home, but he got home so damaged that he then overdosed. And, unfortunately, he was not alone in that. And now, in our wars, even more so, the mental health collateral damage is devastating. So, I’m still not a fan of war, never was, don’t expect I ever will be.

 

[Interviewer]: Do you remember what year that was that you spoke at that college?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: At Buena Vista? You know, it’s funny because—well, easily 25 years ago? Maybe even 30 years ago.

 

[Interviewer]: Sometime in the Nineties probably, yeah. That would make sense.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Yeah, Eighties, Nineties for sure.

 

[Interviewer]: Did you have any other opportunities to do something like that?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Nothing like on that level. Informally in Portland, in our congregation, for example. But nothing else like that.

 

[Interviewer]: It sounds like it was a really powerful experience for everyone involved, yourself and the students.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: I believe so, I believe so, yeah. And in fact, I received a message from Robert, who I’ve definitely lost contact with over the years. He was teaching in the Chicago area and I think with everything that’s gone on with the virus and whatnot, we haven’t continued that dialogue, but I’m definitely looking forward to it. He was the person who invited me to come to speak [at Buena Vista College].

 

[Interviewer]: [01:20:21] I think at this point, maybe we’re ready to conclude our recording, unless you have any final words or memories you’d like to share in addition to what you already have done?

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]:  No, I think—I’m glad we did that last piece and because I think, I guess, of course, I have one more thing to say. Reconciliation is really, really important and I then lose words because, of course, my vision of what happened is still so strong. But history has an obligation and this is an oral history, so it’s wonderful that you’re hearing many views because history is—that’s our hope that, especially through an oral history, where people are telling their own stories, the future generations, at the least, will be able to try and piece together what it felt like from all sides and come to their own conclusion about what happened those days and how does that inform the choices that they make in their own life and where their values lie and be the person they want to be.

 

[Interviewer]: Thank you for summarizing that. I don’t think that I could phrase it any better. So, thank you so much for contributing to the oral history collection, your story, your first-hand account that we can archive as part of that. Thank you so much.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: You’re welcome. Thank you. It’s imperative to do.

 

[Interviewer]:  Okay, we’ll conclude there.

 

[Elisabeth Rogolsky]: Okay, well,  take good care.

 

[End of interview]

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