Pat (North) Gless, Oral History

 

Recorded: February 3, 2020

Interviewed by Kathleen Siebert Medicus

Transcribed by the Kent State University Research & Evaluation Bureau

  

[Interviewer]: This is Kathleen Siebert Medicus, speaking on Monday, February 3, 2020, and we are in Special Collections and Archives in the University Library Building on the Kent Campus, as part of the May 4 Kent State Shootings Oral History Project. Could you please state your name for the recording?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: My name is Pat North Gless.

 

[Interviewer]: Thank you. And may I call you Pat during the interview?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes.

 

[Interviewer]: Thank you, Pat. Thanks so much for being here and being willing to share your story with us today. I really appreciate it.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Thanks for having me.

 

[Interviewer]: If we could begin with just some really brief information about you, about your background, so we can get to know you a little better. Could you tell us where you were born and where you grew up?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Okay, I was born four miles east of Kent in Ravenna. And I lived there during high school and college. And I was a commuter student. So, I traveled back and forth each day for classes.

 

[Interviewer]: And when did you first begin attending Kent State University?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I began in 1967. And I understood that they had a nursing program on campus, and I wanted to be a part of that, and that’s my reason for coming. Plus, the campus was so close to home.

 

[Interviewer]: Absolutely. Yeah. Were you taking the bus, or did you have access to a car?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: No, interestingly there were no buses back then, so our family—

 

[Interviewer]: Not from Ravenna, okay.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: —no, no buses from Ravenna. Our family did not have a car as well, so I got rides from friends. Every day it seemed like there was a different friend coming this way. Lots of my friends came from Ravenna to campus, and so I always had a ride. And then I got a ride home.

 

[Interviewer]: And that worked? You didn’t miss class ever?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: No. No. I worked really hard, it was almost a full-time job arranging rides, but I did it.

 

[Interviewer]: You could have become a CEO after that, after, you know, managing.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I think I could have run a company, yes, I do.

 

[Interviewer]: So, when you started in 1967, your freshman year, were you aware—were you seeing any protests on the campus, either anti-war or civil rights protests? Is that something that you saw or were aware of?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I wasn’t aware of that. Of course, being a commuter student, I wasn’t on campus for weekends. I wasn’t here when school wasn’t in session. So, I basically came just in time for classes and then went home and had a job. And so, I wasn’t aware of like extracurricular things, and I didn’t notice a political mood while—one way or another while I was on campus. But I think by my, end of my sophomore year, I was more aware of marches, especially against the war, against the Vietnam War.

 

[Interviewer]: So that would have been, by then, ’68 and into ’69?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes. Yes. And then by my junior year, much more. In fact, I participated in some of the marches. We would start on campus, walk, march downtown, then march back to campus with signs. And the reason that I became involved when I was a junior is because my younger brother, who was nineteen at the time, was serving in Vietnam in the Army as a medic. And I thought that by marching we were getting our message across, and that it would be helpful to him. But I learned, too late, that it was not helpful to him. But that’s how I got involved.

 

[Interviewer]: Did he make it home?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: He made it home. He did. He really did. He, when he came home, he said when the students marched and there was a lot of news about it in the newspaper, not just at Kent of course, but all over the states, the fighting got worse over there.

 

[Interviewer]: Wow, interesting.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: But he said he appreciated our efforts, though. Such as they were.

 

[Interviewer]: That you were thinking about him.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes.

 

[Interviewer]: So, he was stationed in Vietnam.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes, he was.

 

[Interviewer]: Working at a M.A.S.H. unit, he was in a hospital?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: He was in a mechanized unit, it’s kind of different than a M.A.S.H. unit, where they were stationed in an area where they went out and took care of the soldiers and then they were sent on to M.A.S.H. units, maybe. But he didn’t work in a particular M.A.S.H. unit.

 

[Interviewer]: So, he was kind of more on the front lines and doing kind of triage?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: More so. Triage, yes. But he—

 

[Interviewer]: Was your family in pretty good communication from, were you hearing from him regularly?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes.

 

[Interviewer]: But you were still worried, of course.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Very much. Very much. And, yes, we had good communication. Letters, audiotapes we’d send to him, things like that. And then I had a cousin that died during that time in Vietnam. His helicopter crashed into a mountain over there and so we were very aware of the gravity of the situation.

 

[Interviewer]: And the toll it was taking on families, your family.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes, yes.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:06:11] So, you were a nursing student, your younger brother’s a medic.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes.

 

[Interviewer]: Is your whole family in the medical field?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Well, several. My mother was a nurse and she worked at the hospital in Ravenna. My sister was a unit secretary. I was a student nurse, they called us a nurse tech back then, at the hospital.

 

[Interviewer]: And that was while you were a student? That was the job you mentioned?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes, yes.

 

[Interviewer]: And you mentioned while we were chatting before we started the recording, that your family’s home was very close to the old hospital in Ravenna, so—

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right. Right next door.

 

[Interviewer]: —maybe tell us that story?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: So, we all worked at the hospital, and we would go out our front door and go in the hospital’s front door, and it was like a little parade every morning.

 

[Interviewer]: That’s really fun to picture.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes, yes.

 

[Interviewer]: Could you go home for lunch or a cup of coffee?

 

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: We probably could have, but we didn’t.

 

[Interviewer]: You didn’t have time, maybe.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: No, no.

 

[Interviewer]: So how many, were you working there a number of hours, maybe like half-time while you were taking classes?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: When I was in school, I worked there on the weekends.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes, on the weekends.

 

[Interviewer]: Well, that worked out well.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: So, it did. It worked out good.

 

[Interviewer]: You had to be organized, you had to have your homework done during the week.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right, right. And then cleared the weekends to work and have some fun, too.

 

[Interviewer]: Every once in a while.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes, yes.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:07:50] Did you, in your years of taking classes from ’67 up until the spring of ’70, did you notice any kind of progression? Was the war something that was discussed more during class? Or maybe brought up by your professors or even brought up for discussion by students, what was going on with the war. Did that increase in class?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I don’t ever remember discussing the war in class. I really don’t. But with my friends and social situations it was talked about frequently. Almost everybody had someone that was serving in the war. And then, of course, every night on the news, when you watched the news on TV during that time, they would say how many soldiers died that day and that went on every day, every evening. And they would say how many from Portage County, how many from this particular area, and so on. And so it was just a constant reminder. The news kept us very informed, as much as possible.

 

[Interviewer]: You mentioned the protests, and then a couple that you participated in, walking downtown and back. Do you have any specific memories from that, or any, does anything stand out as a specific memory from any of those?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I remember the first march that I ever went on. I was just going from point A to point B on campus and I saw a group of people gathering, so I went over and listened and heard what they were going to do. The, “We’re against the war. We’re going to let everybody know. We’re going to march.” And I thought, oh, that sounds like something I’d like to do. And that’s how I became involved. No one got me involved, I just sort of overheard and I kind of learned this is how things like this happen. You follow along because it sounds like something you should be doing. And that’s how I got involved.

 

[Interviewer]: So, it was impromptu.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right.

 

[Interviewer]: You saw this group, and you were curious.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Exactly, exactly. And I became probably more involved in the spring of 1970. And things, when things turned—the point at which things turned bad is when President Nixon said that Cambodia was going to be invaded. And that just started this whole cycle of weekend events.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:10:35] Did you happen to see that broadcast yourself?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Probably, but, you know, I don’t remember specifically watching it. I just remember, at that point in time of the quarter that we were in at Kent, that May, that everybody was talking about it. It was in the papers. Things escalated on campus very quickly after that.

 

[Interviewer]: Yes, so that announcement was on Thursday, April 30. Do you remember, were you on campus the next day? The Friday before the shootings?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I was on campus that Friday, but I don’t remember any particulars. It seems like my focus, again, was: get to class, get a ride, get to class, get a ride, go home, prepare for the weekend. So, everything kind of came to a head for me on that Monday on May 4 when I returned to campus.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay. On the weekend, you were working at the hospital.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes.

 

[Interviewer]: Were you hearing things, that there had been a fire on campus?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes, I heard that through the news.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: And we got our news from TV and the radio back then. We listened a lot to the radio, for some reason. They had more frequent news, for one thing. And so, you could catch up.

 

[Interviewer]: And it may have been something your parents grew up with, and you know, that was what they liked.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right. Yeah, the radio was—of course, we didn’t have a TV in every room back then, we just had one in our living room. So, in my room in the house, my bedroom, I had a radio and I kind of had that on most of the time when I was home.

 

[Interviewer]: Oh, yeah, you had your own radio, of course.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right. Yes. So, caught up on the news.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:12:42] So, before Monday, before you went to campus on Monday, you had a sense of, that things had really changed.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right, gotten intense. And that we had Army jeeps on campus and soldiers, and that was—

 

[Interviewer]: Well, that was good to know, I think, before you saw it.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right.

 

[Interviewer]: You know, to be forewarned or whatever.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: That’s correct.

 

[Interviewer]: So, tell us about your day, that Monday, May 4.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Okay, I came to campus, and on my way to class, from the car, as I walked through campus, I could see the Army jeeps and the presence of the National Guard on campus. And I just went—walked to my classroom and, once I was in the classroom, a professor came in, a faculty member. It wasn’t our teacher for that class, but someone—and I don’t remember who that person was, I wish I did—but they announced that—it was probably ten or eleven in the morning—and they announced, this faculty member, that any of the students in the class that could get off campus should do so. Because of all the things that happened over the weekend and the Guard were on campus, this person felt something bad was going to happen. And really forewarned us if we could get off campus. So, being an obedient person, I found a ride home and I went home. And so, I wasn’t there for the shootings, or any of that.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, good for you.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: And they dismissed class. But that was it.

 

[Interviewer]: Where was that class, do you remember what building you were in?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I don’t remember the building. But I do know it wasn’t a nursing class. That’s all I remember.

 

[Interviewer]: It wasn’t your major, it was—

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Maybe a sociology class or something. But I don’t remember. I wish I had kept a diary back then, because I can see myself sitting in the class and the person coming in and making the announcement, but I have no idea what class it was. Fifty years erases so much memory.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, it’s fifty years ago, and there was a lot going on in those days, too.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes, yes.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:15:08] So you got home?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right, I got home, and turned on the news again and listened, mostly to the radio. And I learned, or I heard, rather, that students had been killed—this was early in the afternoon—and National Guard had been killed. And I didn’t know that that wasn’t true at that point. So, I listened to the news and then I looked out the back window of our home and saw the parking lot at the hospital just full, it was so full of bystanders and cars and I’ve never seen it just so jam-packed full of people. I realized, then, that they were bringing the injured and maybe the dead into the hospital. And so, back then, if you were injured, you were taken to the nearest hospital. There were no trauma centers back then. And so, our little hospital in Ravenna received all the injured and—from here.

 

[Interviewer]: It was the closest, yeah.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Then, I got called into work. So, I was off that day, but the hospital treated it like a—I can’t think what I want to say—a large-scale accident or whatever, where they called all available staff in to work. And so, then I was sent to a certain area of the hospital to work. And I ended up helping to take care of some of the injured students. And, all of the sudden, there in the thick of it.

 

[Interviewer]: And you’re nineteen, twenty years old yourself, at this point?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I’m twenty, let’s see, I was twenty-one.

 

[Interviewer]: Barely twenty-one, probably.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:17:05] That must have been terrifying.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: It was, you didn’t have a chance to think, though, or process. It was just—everything happened so fast. So, I put on my uniform, went over, went to work, and they said that I should work—I should report to the intensive care unit as a nurse tech. So, I reported there, and then the head nurse just said, you know, what to do. We need you to get these supplies, we’ll need you to go and help get this patient ready for surgery, we need you to scrub a wound, or, you know, just take a blood pressure. Different tasks that I had. And did those, and the students went off to surgery one by one. And there was lots of commotion. But it also seemed orderly, in a way, too.

 

[Interviewer]: You felt the hospital staff was managing it and being professional.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Absolutely.

 

[Interviewer]: And you were being given clear instructions, you knew what to do.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Absolutely.

 

[Interviewer]: Thank goodness.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right. So, they made sure there was enough personnel there and everyone got taken care of, so.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:18:24] Did you speak with any friends or family of any of the injured?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: No. No, the family and friends were all in the waiting room. The ones that were there, because some people were from out of state, you know, and those families maybe hadn’t gotten there yet. But no I didn’t have an opportunity to do that.

 

[Interviewer]: Did you, do you remember which students you helped?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I helped John Cleary. And I did get to meet him on campus last year, 2019. We both were attending a talk on May 4th. And so, I went up and introduced myself and said, “I think I might have taken your blood pressure back in 1970.”

 

[Interviewer]: Did he thank you?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: He did. He was—he’s such a kind and generous person. And he’s, yeah, very, very nice gentleman. And so—

 

[Interviewer]: And his injuries were quite severe, and he pulled through.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: They were severe. He did. And he was the one student on the cover of Life magazine. It was down, and on the ground and there were several students around him providing first aid. And, yes, he came through. And I’m trying to think—

 

[Interviewer]: [00:19:52] So that was an interesting reunion with someone you had taken his blood pressure forty-nine years before.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes. So, we had our pictures taken together. His wife was there. And I spoke with them for a little bit. And that was nice. That kind of came full circle. I don’t remember the names of the others. I mean I can kind of think that I was probably there and took Joe Lewis’s blood pressure. I mean I can kind of picture myself. I can remember more about the wounds, like there’s a chest wound and then there’s an abdominal wound. And I don’t know why I can remember that but it’s, it’s just what I remember.

 

[Interviewer]: You’re a nurse, and that was your job, to focus on that and do everything you could to take care of that.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right. And I know Dean Kahler was in there too, but I, he had a lot of specialized treatment, a lot of people around him, and I didn’t have any assignments over there, where he was at. He had a lot of people surrounding him, so. But—

 

[Interviewer]: So, were you, so you maybe didn’t go back to the hospital, well classes had been cancelled, so?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: They were. They were cancelled and they didn’t open up back for several weeks until summer session started, actually. So, we had to do all of our assignments by mail. Our nursing instructors would send us assignments, and we would read the assignments and then take tests that they sent us. And did our papers and things all like that during the mail, so we just—or through the mail. So, we sent things back and forth and that’s how we got our grades, because we were on quarter system, and the quarter didn’t end until sometime in early June. So, we had all the rest of May.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, and May 4 was kind of midterms—

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: That was early.

 

[Interviewer]: —kind of in the middle of the term.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right. It was exactly the middle of the term. And, yeah, so.

 

[Interviewer]: There was still a lot at stake for you to finish your classes that semester.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right, right. And our goal, I was a junior, our goal was to graduate all of our class and we had one year to go. We weren’t sure if we were going to be able to do it at Kent State. So, that was on our minds.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:22:25] So, you didn’t meet with any professors? Some people met at professors’ homes or in church basements. You did all yours through the mail?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: No. That’s what I heard recently and I didn’t know that. Yeah, our students were from all over. And some of our instructors were too. So, we did it all by mail. I don’t remember ever meeting. Some other nursing classes might have met, but our junior classes didn’t.

 

[Interviewer]: So that worked out. You were able to complete.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right. We got our grades and then, I probably did go into work more during that time I was off school.

 

[Interviewer]: You were available to work more hours.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I was available. I was next door!

 

[Interviewer]: They could call you at the last minute.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: That’s the disadvantage. Right. So, that all worked out.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:23:18] Was there any kind of aftermath at the hospital that you were, that you perceived? Working there in the week or two following?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: There was. There was at the hospital and in our town, our community. Everyone talked about it. It was talked about for months and months and months. And it seemed like people started taking sides. Not just at the hospital but in our community, our neighborhood as well. People were either for the students, the students did no wrong, or they were for the National Guard, the National Guard did no wrong.

 

[Interviewer]: So, it was very black-and-white?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: It was, it was. And it was really hurtful to a person like myself who was a student, who had friends in the National Guard, who had friends in Vietnam, who had friends as students. I mean it was, we were just a big group of people that were all about the same age. And there were many variables that entered into the actions that occurred on campus that day. And I could have never taken sides. It wasn’t a situation to take sides in.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:24:41] Did anyone kind of put you in that position? Sort of pigeonholing you since you were a student at Kent State? Did that ever happen?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I don’t remember anyone in particular, but I do remember there was a lot of views, in general, of people feeling that the students should have been obedient. And should have listened and not gathered and things like that. And they felt the students deserved—this is something that came up a lot—a comment such as, The students deserved to be shot. It was horrible. I wasn’t raised like that. I wasn’t ever raised to think someone deserved to be hurt. It was just so, so wrong, I thought. And I had to hear that.

 

[Interviewer]: Not something your parents said.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: My—our family never took sides, no. And now I was thankful for that. We were a good support for each other. But it was a very hurtful time.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, I mean, I’m thinking about your parents, also, with a son in the war, a daughter a Kent State student, and just navigating conversations with their neighbors, their coworkers, yeah.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right. They were in a different position. They weren’t, they weren’t on the outside looking in, they were in there, you know. They were in the midst of it all, in one way or another. But I just, still today, can’t see how those opinions formed. It was a consensus almost. So, I felt bad about that, and that was difficult.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:26:41] Did you have a sense of, I mean I’ve heard a lot of people living in the city of Kent, in Kent, feeling very afraid.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes.

 

[Interviewer]: Would you describe your neighborhood in Ravenna also having that feeling, many people were afraid?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: No. Not at all.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: No, I don’t remember people talking about fear. But I do understand the people in Kent would feel that way. Their lives were disrupted. They couldn’t even get into the city of Kent afterwards, unless they showed identification. Yeah. It was a difficult time seeing Army jeeps coming up your street.

 

[Interviewer]: Parked on your playground at school.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yeah, parked on your playground and soldiers staying all night in your school. And helicopters flying overhead. Very eerie.

 

[Interviewer]: So there, were there any helicopters flying over Ravenna? Did you—I mean Ravenna is about four miles away.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right.

 

[Interviewer]: So, a little removed.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I’m sure there were but I don’t remember that.

 

[Interviewer]: But not as intensely, maybe.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right. Now, in Ravenna, there were like Army trucks that came down Main Street to go into Kent. It was some of the National Guard. So, that was viewed by people in Ravenna. But it wasn’t anywhere near the intensity that the Kent residents felt, I’m sure. But no, we were—

 

[Interviewer]: And maybe Ravenna, I mean there’s a big arsenal location in Ravenna, and maybe it was more commonplace to see Army vehicles.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes. It was more commonplace, yes. And the arsenal was open at that time and they were making ammunition for the war. And so, it was a known fact that you would see those vehicles around town.

 

[Interviewer]: Now and then, yeah.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Now and then, right.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:28:53] Is there anything else from kind of that summer of 1970 that sticks out in your mind?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: There is. I needed to go to summer school to make up a couple classes that I needed for graduation the next year. So, I registered and went as soon as school opened back up. I got into the first summer session and took two classes. And then I finished—I think they had two summer sessions, so then I went to the second summer session and took one class. But the time that I was on campus for those classes, it was so soon after the shootings, but we didn’t seem to talk about it. It wasn’t a topic of conversation during those classes. So, I know that that seems strange that that happened, but—because today there would be a lot of probably counseling for students coming back to campus after that. PTSD would be recognized today. But back then, it wasn’t. And actually, for me, it was a good thing, because at home, in our neighborhood, in our community, and at my job, there was constant talk of Kent State. But low and behold, if I went over to Kent State for my summer classes, there would be no talk!

 

[Interviewer]: You could get away from that.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: So that was—it’s kind of a strange phenomenon. But for me—

 

[Interviewer]: That’s very, opposite of what you would expect.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right, but for me it was good, because—

 

[Interviewer]: You could focus on your coursework, and—

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: —I couldn’t do anything about it. I can remember it and I want to always remember it, and will always but, back then, I felt the best I could do was move forward, get my classes done, become a nurse, and finish what I set out to do.

 

[Interviewer]: Right, absolutely.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: So that was an interesting thought about that summer.

 

[Interviewer]: I mean this happened in the middle of you as a young person, kind of making your way towards becoming an adult and what you’re going to do in your life.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right, right. And I think it forever changed my life and, as well as, I would think, anyone that went through that. And I didn’t even go through that experience to the extent of some individuals that were there that day, that were injured. So many—it really touched so many lives. Would be difficult to know how many, you know. But in our family we have had two more generations since me.

 

[Interviewer]: Come to nursing school, or?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: No, no, but come to Kent State. My son came here, my daughter. My grandson is getting ready to graduate this semester at Kent State. And they’re all involved and in-tune to the May 4th events. So, I’m very thankful for that, that they remember with me and they, they’re very sensitive to the events and realize that it’s a time that needs to be remembered and talked about. And so, I’m so thankful for that, that there’s two generations after me, just in my little family. And I would suppose it’s that way for many, many people that went through that time.

 

[Interviewer]: True. And they’ve had the benefit of hearing about this time in history firsthand from a grandmother, a mother. That’s very impactful.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right, it’s kind of like the World War II veterans that we—we are drawn to them, I think, and want to hear their stories. And there aren’t many left of them.

 

[Interviewer]: No, to hear the personal side of someone’s experience is—

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: The personal side is so, so important, I think. It brings history alive. And so, I’m thankful for—that I get to do that. That I get to come today and talk about this.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, so thank you for sharing it beyond your family and with the Oral History Project so other students and future students can learn about what you experienced. [00:33:37] I’m wondering, you mentioned that these events had a life-long impact for you, could you, maybe, talk a little bit more about that? How would you characterize that, or how do you normally describe that impact?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I would describe that, the effect that it had on me, that it’s affected my interactions with others. That I want to listen if someone has a different opinion than mine. I want to acknowledge that and accept that as their own. I think it’s so important, especially today when there’s such divisiveness in the world, politically and otherwise, that we can talk about our differences and we can accept them for what they are. And I think that’s what came out of this to—this time for me, this May 4th of 1970—to help prevent something from getting so big. And listen to people as I think we would have liked to have been listened to more back then, you know. I can do that. I can listen. And I want to role-model that. I think it’s just so important.

 

[Interviewer]: You did that with your family, with your friendships and your career, as a nurse.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Absolutely, there’s so many occasions to do that. And I don’t ever want to get to the point where I’m right, nobody else is right. And it can really have bad effects, as we see in the world today, so. And then if there’s any way to have a peaceful compromise in a situation, I want to kind of go that direction, in situations. I think listening is the thing that came out of that. Listening and providing acceptance.

 

[Interviewer]: Thank you. [00:36:04] It sounds like that was also an ethic of your family growing up, but then you learned the lesson even more vigorously through—after these events.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I believe I did. I believe I did, yes. And I think the campus—Kent State really did quite a bit after this too by instituting the Center for Peaceful Change, which has a new name now I’m pretty sure.

 

[Interviewer]: Peace and Conflict Studies, possibly?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Peace and Conflict Studies. And I’ve even—I’ve seen that, once in a while, on someone’s major, that they majored or minored in that, and I thought, That’s so wonderful. And I wouldn’t mind taking classes there myself.

 

[Interviewer]: We should all minor in that.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I agree. I agree, no matter what we do in life, it would be so great. But, yes, Kent State has done some wonderful things. And then having a whole year of reflection is so appreciated. And I’m glad to be a part of that.

 

[Interviewer]: That’s been meaningful for you? That’s been meaningful for you at this point in your life.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Very much. It really has. It really has, because I’ll think about things that I would have never thought about before, you know, coming to the different speeches and talks and events. I look forward to two more of them as well.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, I’m very grateful to have been able to attend the panel where you spoke about PTSD and just more about what it is and the various, you know, things that can cause PTSD that people might not think of and that’s really helped me understand, or just maybe spend a little more time thinking about what someone might be going through who was there that day.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right.

 

[Interviewer]: Or, in your case, you weren’t an eyewitness of the shootings, but I would argue that you were on the front lines just as much, taking care of injuries at the hospital, absolutely.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I feel that way, too.

 

[Interviewer]: You hadn’t had a whole lot nursing experience at that point.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: No, no.

 

[Interviewer]: You were a rookie.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right, right, I was just a tech, but was right in there. But I also benefitted by that talk, the experts in PTSD that spoke. I learned of new treatments that can be done and that have been tried and the research that’s going on. So, I’m glad that that field is growing, as far as knowledge base.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, same here. I learned a lot about that aspect of it.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I agree.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:38:58] I just wonder if we could go back to summer 1970 for you, and, you know, you talked about the stress of these conversations that were constantly happening at work, in your neighborhood, and that campus was a little bit of an oasis for that. Is there anything else that kind of sticks out in your mind from that summer? Was it—did it seem really quiet? I mean, had you been in summer classes before, maybe it was hard to compare?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I went to summer class the year before, just one summer class. And I don’t remember it as being too much different. I really don’t. But let’s see, your question was how was that summer?

 

[Interviewer]: Or just, what did you see? I’ve heard people talk about investigations taking place in the Commons, where they were marking out grids. Did you see detectives on campus, or news media?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I don’t think I remember seeing them, but I do know on the news that they talked about it. And yeah. And then they also had some hearings on campus, not that summer, but the next year maybe. And I remember attending some of them.

 

But that particular summer, something interesting happened. I was working at the hospital and one of my friends from high school, her mother was admitted to the hospital. And she was admitted because of stress, of this talk about the students and the Guard, and it was so stressful for her, and she was a parent, you know. It affected her so greatly that she asked her physician if she could be admitted, and back then, you could do that. You could come into the hospital for stress. And that really stood out in my mind, that, okay, it’s affecting me, but here’s a parent, my mother’s age, and she needed to get away for a little bit. It was, with her circle, her social circle, it was so stressful. And I don’t know, it just made me realize that this is far-reaching, the events of this day are far-reaching, and we’ll never ever know how far. Because, for her, it was too much, she needed a few days away. So, I don’t know, for some reason that made an impression on me.

 

[Interviewer]: Oh, that would have made an impression on me had I been in your shoes. So, she was in for several days?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes, several days.

 

[Interviewer]: Maybe even medication was able to help her.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Private room. You know, since I was a nurse tech, I don’t remember anything about medication because I didn’t deal with that. But I do remember a private room and just quiet.

 

[Interviewer]: Get away from all the stimulus.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Just wanted quiet. And I didn’t hope for that for myself or anybody I knew. It’s not that. It’s just that, okay, here’s one person’s story. It’s worth thinking about. This person knew they needed help, and that it was so stressful. And that’s a person who never witnessed the events, who wasn’t on campus on that day. But I guess it hit home for me because—

 

[Interviewer]: It could have been your mom.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: It could have, but the people in the Portage County, you could not get away from discussions. If you went out of town, maybe on a short vacation, and someone said, “Oh, where are you from?” You didn’t want to say the Kent area because they would talk about it. Everyone had an opinion. And so, anyway, that’s kind of interesting.

 

[Interviewer]: No, I’ve heard people tell stories of going on a road trip that summer and even their Ohio license plate drew attention. And they’d come out of the restaurant and there’d be people standing around their car and then start asking them questions.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Oh my. There’s no getting, there was no getting away back then.

 

[Interviewer]: There was no escaping it for that immediate aftermath.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I remember one of my friends that I graduated with, she taught nursing and she had her diploma—or her graduate degree, I’m sorry—up on the wall of her office and she said a student came in one day and saw that she graduated from Kent State, what, in 1971! And they told her, the student said, “That’s worth a lot of money.” You know, they knew the time period and they said, “Oh, your degree is, that picture’s worth a lot of money.” So, but yeah, we—

 

[Interviewer]: Did she ask them to make an offer?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I don’t know. I don’t know, but I suppose she made copies if they wanted one.

 

[Interviewer]: Oh, that’s funny.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: But anyway, lots of ramifications from that day.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:44:33] I’m curious about then, when you went back in the fall, now for your senior year, you mentioned that everyone in your class was determined. You wanted to graduate.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right.

 

[Interviewer]: Was everyone able to come back to Kent State?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: As far as I know. I don’t remember anyone not coming back. We graduated with sixty-some students that year. It was the first, it actually was the first year that Kent graduated its nurses, 1971.

 

[Interviewer]: Oh, my goodness.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: That was the very first year of—

 

[Interviewer]: Because it was a new program, or—?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: It was a brand-new program. It was a brand-new program, started in 1967.

 

[Interviewer]: So, your diploma is really worth money.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I think it is, I think it is. I’m going to put it on eBay!

 

[Interviewer]: You were the first graduating class of nurses.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: We were the first, so, it just, we just really wanted to make that happen, I think. You know.

 

[Interviewer]: Did a lot of you attend commencement, the ceremony?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Everybody that I know of. Everybody that I know of. Yeah, we all, we all came and it’s interesting, yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: I’m sure your parents were about to pop with pride that day.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: They were—pretty, pretty—everybody was pretty happy that day, you know.

 

[Interviewer]: Had been a long road.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yeah, yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:45:56] Are there any memories from your senior year that you’d like to share?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I’m trying to think.

 

[Interviewer]: Either shootings or war-related, or not?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Well, my brother came home. My brother got to come home.

 

[Interviewer]: Oh, that was a big year for your family.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I got married. I got married my senior year. I know in our yearbook, that’s back when we got the yearbooks, that one with polka dots up there [points to a copy on the shelf nearby], that was the yearbook from my graduation year.

 

[Interviewer]: Do you have a senior portrait in it?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I do.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay, okay.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I do. And I’m pretty sure when we got those books there were blank pictures for the students that died, if they were in that graduating class, I think. I’d have to go back and look, but I think I do remember that. And, in that yearbook, there—it’s the Chestnut Burr from 1971 and it has a record in there.

 

[Interviewer]: Oh yeah, a small record album, a recording.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: A small 45 rpm, I think, that’s attached to one of the pages. I’ve never taken mine out or played it but, apparently, it’s the sounds of May 4th. I’m not sure what all it is, the gunfire maybe. And then there are several pages devoted to photographs of May 4th and that weekend. And those are—that’s a very memorable book if anyone ever can get ahold of that.

 

[Interviewer]: It’s an amazing yearbook.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: It is.

 

[Interviewer]: It’s visually and photographically just very forward-looking, very avant-garde. I’m sure your children and grandchildren have had a chance to look through that.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes, yes, in fact, I was able to get one online, in addition to mine, so I have two. So, I can give one to each of my children and if I get a third, then I’ll give that to my grandson. But I really treasure that book. It has lots of memorable photos and newspaper write-ups and so forth. But that’s about all I remember of my senior year, just working really hard to get everything done.

 

[Interviewer]: Were you able to have any fun that year?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I did.

 

[Interviewer]: Oh, good! You don’t need to share it, I’m just checking.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Okay. Yes, yes, we did. We had little celebrations here and there.

 

[Interviewer]: There were dances, were you able to go to any social events?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I don’t remember any of those. I do remember my friends, we started getting married that year, so it’s like, okay, now we can get married.

 

 

[Interviewer]: You had a lot of weddings to go to.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: So, we’ll do that. So, that was good. And yeah, just the excitement of finishing up. But also, a layer of sadness that was there, and is there still today.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:49:00] Did you happen to be able to attend the first memorial services and commemoration?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I’ve, you know I don’t know if I got to the one the first year, but—if they had one the first year, I would think they did.

 

[Interviewer]: There was something, I know.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Something that first year? But I’ve been to many, many memorials, I’ve been to every one that I could attend throughout the years. And I’ll always go to them if I can.

 

[Interviewer]: And you’ve lived in the area most of your career?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: And I’ve lived in the area. We lived in Kent here, for about forty years, and we just moved back to Ravenna to downsize. Downsize our home. So, we’re just four miles away again. And yeah, we’ll always be in this area I’m sure, and I’m glad for that.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:49:56] One kind of thing I wanted to ask before we close, for people who don’t realize that the location of the hospital in Ravenna was different than where Portage Medical Center is located now, can you just tell us approximately where the old—

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right, okay, the old hospital is on, let me think, is on South Meridian Street.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay. Is it where the Portage County buildings are now? Is that—?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: It’s the Portage County—it’s where you can get, where you can pay your taxes, where you can go and check your property, you know. There’s—so, what’s it called?

 

[Interviewer]: The Board of Elections is there, so it’s like kind of the municipal buildings now for—

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right. Right. So, the hospital structure is still there, but it’s the Portage County Building now. And, in the late 1970s, they built a new hospital and it’s on the north end of Ravenna. And it is on North Chestnut Street. So, that location is different.

 

[Interviewer]: But in 1970, it was close to downtown Ravenna.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right, exactly.

 

[Interviewer]: Right in the heart of the community.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right. It had an intensive care unit, you know, it wasn’t state-of-the-art or a trauma center or anything near to that degree, but it did meet the needs of the community at that time.

 

[Interviewer]: And it would have been the main medical facility in the county, I’m assuming?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: The only one. The only one in Portage County. And then they had, you know, Akron City, Akron General, Cuyahoga Falls Hospital, but they were all a lot smaller than they are now. So, and ambulances brought you right to Ravenna so that’s how everyone ended up here.

 

[Interviewer]: I mean, mile-wise, it’s definitely the closest.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Absolutely.

 

[Interviewer]: Is still, and was then.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes, it is.

 

[Interviewer]: I don’t think I realized that the original hospital building is there and it’s just, you know, repurposed.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Exactly, it is.

 

[Interviewer]: And maybe added on to, et cetera (?? [00:52:18]).

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: It is. I don’t know, let’s see, when they built the new hospital, they never did add on then to the old hospital. It stayed the same structure and all the areas were repurposed into offices.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay, thank you. That kind of helps us just picture, you know where you were and where you were coming from.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Right. In fact, I visited there recently and just kind of walked the parking lot of the emergency room. It’s very, very small, the parking lot. And back then it seemed so big.

 

[Interviewer]: Oh, that’s funny.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: But very, it’s very tiny, really.

 

[Interviewer]: Is the house you grew up in still standing?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: No, they tore that down.

 

[Interviewer]: I was afraid of that.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: They tore that down. Yes, that’s okay.

 

[Interviewer]: Was it actually on South Meridian?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Yes. Our house was on South Meridian.

 

[Interviewer]: So, as a kid, you could walk downtown and buy candy.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Oh, you could and we grew up without a car, so we walked everywhere—the grocery store, the library, church, school.

 

[Interviewer]: Walked to school. High School.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Football games. Dances. Walked to everything, so it was very convenient.

 

[Interviewer]: Neat. That is a Norman Rockwell growing up.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: It is! It really is. Lots of good memories.

 

[Interviewer]: Well, thank you so much. I don’t have any other questions or follow-ups I wanted to ask unless there’s anything else you’d like to share or talk about?

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: I don’t think so. I feel good that I’ve been able to talk a bit about it and hope that the information will help someone as they maybe walk through the steps that some of us walked through back then and that it helps provide a clearer picture of that time period.

 

[Interviewer]: Absolutely. It will do all of those things. So, thank you so much for sharing with us.

 

[Pat (North) Gless]: Thank you very much. It was a pleasure.

 

[Interviewer]: Thanks.

 

[End of interview]

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