Karl Liske, Oral History

 

Recorded: December 2, 2019

Interviewed by Kathleen Siebert Medicus

Transcribed by the Kent State University Research & Evaluation Bureau

 

 

[Interviewer]: This is Kathleen Siebert Medicus on Monday, December 2, 2019, and we are at Kent State University Library Special Collections and Archives as part of the May 4 Kent State Shootings Oral History Project. Could you please state your name for the recording?

 

[Karl Liske]: Karl Liske.

 

[Interviewer]: Hi, Karl, thank you. Do you mind if I call you Karl?

 

[Karl Liske]: Oh, please do.

 

[Interviewer]: Thanks so much for being here today.

 

[Karl Liske]: My pleasure.

 

[Interviewer]: I really appreciate it. I’d like to start with just some very brief information about your background so we can get to know you a little better. Could you tell us where you were born and where you grew up?

 

[Karl Liske]: Lorain, Ohio.

 

[Interviewer]: You were born in Lorain? And did you grow up there?

 

[Karl Liske]: No, I was there maybe, as I understand it, a year maybe.

 

[Interviewer]: So, you were a baby in Lorain.

 

[Karl Liske]: Yes, began.

 

[Interviewer]: And then did you move to Kent? Did your family move to Kent then?

 

[Karl Liske]: No, as I understand it, my parents went east. I know we lived in Hollis, Long Island, when my brother was born.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay. When did you come to Kent? What brought you to Kent?

 

[Karl Liske]: 1954. I had just graduated from high school. My father had just gotten a job with B. F. Goodrich in Akron. And my mother had some history here in Kent, as a girl, in her girlhood, and so that was another reason we probably moved here. Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: You moved to Kent with your family when you were about eighteen?

 

[Karl Liske]: Yes, exactly. I was eighteen.

 

[Interviewer]: And, in 1970, where were you living, and could you tell us about your occupation?

 

[Karl Liske]: Yes. I was living on the west side of Kent. I think it was like 315 Woodard Avenue, or Street. It was not too far from downtown. And then I was working for the [United States] Postal Service and, at that time, I was actually delivering the mail to the campus. That was my job.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:02:15] When did you start doing that? Having the Kent State campus mail route?

 

[Karl Liske]: You know, it would have been early on because it was before I became a regular, an assigned regular. I can’t remember the category, but I just had to take what they assigned me to do. And that was the job they had at that time.

 

[Interviewer]: In early days, for you, working for the Postal Service? So that would have been—?

 

[Karl Liske]: Well, let’s see, I think I started working for the Post Office in close to ’63. Yeah, something like that. I’m trying to remember. I know my daughter was born in ‘64. So I’d say ’64. No, that first year I taught school. So, ‘65 or ’66, I was working for the Post Office.

 

[Interviewer]: And delivering on campus at Kent State much of that time.

 

[Karl Liske]: In ‘70, that’s when, yes.

 

[Interviewer]: You really had a unique opportunity to witness things on campus all during the middle of 1960s, leading up to—

 

[Karl Liske]: Actually, I was a student there, too. I started going there in ’55, and I’m not good at keeping track of the sequence of things, history-wise, but—

 

[Interviewer]: No, no that’s fine, but maybe shortly after you moved here with your family, after high school, you were a student at Kent State.

 

[Karl Liske]: Yes, actually. I was at Oberlin one semester in ’54. And then, in ’55, spring quarter, it was trimester, I was at Kent State. But I never graduated here. I had enough hours but not the right combination.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:04:26] What were you studying? A variety of things?

 

[Karl Liske]: English and biology.

 

[Interviewer]: So, you knew the campus before you started working for the Postal Service? You knew it inside out, having been a student here.

 

[Karl Liske]: Yes, I’d say that.

 

[Interviewer]: I often find students have a different understanding of where things are because they’re walking to classes, whereas—

 

[Karl Liske]: Yeah, though I, because I was not residing on-campus, I really didn’t take part in campus life. I was living at home on the west, out on Fairchild Avenue, and just commuting every day. I would bicycle. Oh, but then, I’m trying to think. I know when I was—when I got married, I was going to Kent State.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:05:29] Do you have any memories before 1970, say in the middle to late 1960s, of seeing any protests on campus? Or any marches? And you were mostly on campus during the daytime for work.

 

[Karl Liske]: Oh, boy. Boy, that’s a good question. I’ll have to work on that one.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay, we can come back to that. Maybe let’s let you start with the story you’d like to tell of what you witnessed around 1970?

 

[Karl Liske]: Well, you know, there was what was being reported in the papers, and then, of course, I was up circulating around the campus. And, with the coming of the National Guard and all this armament around, that created an atmosphere of apprehension, I think. For instance, what were they expecting? With all this, you know, a tank and armored personnel carrier and these soldiers with guns, you know, bayonets. I think that was—I had the feeling that it wasn’t the students that rioted, this was just my take, it was the overreaction of the government of the, you know, state and local officials.

 

[Interviewer]: On that Monday, May 4, you were starting to do your deliveries, and your mail rounds?

 

[Karl Liske]: Yes, and I was not actually up on campus when the shooting occurred.

 

[Interviewer]: That’s okay, we can take a break. We can take a break any time.

 

[Karl Liske]: No, I’m fine. I just remember going back to the Post Office and there was this fellow employee up on the dock, and I can’t remember, maybe I knew by then. The early rumor was that it was a National Guardsman that had been shot, that was the first thing I heard.

 

[Interviewer]: That was the initial reports.

 

[Karl Liske]: Yeah. And then it, you know, the shootings. This employee said, “They should have shot more of them.”

 

[Interviewer]: Your fellow coworker said that?

 

[Karl Liske]: You know, and I said—I didn’t do any better—I said, “That’s a Nazi pig statement.” And he drew back his fist. I didn’t do well in that confrontation.

 

[Interviewer]: Oh my gosh. But you didn’t get—

 

[Karl Liske]: But the whole area—that precipitated all this really—one of the graduate students that came to our Quaker Meeting, he was doing a project on all the letters written to the Record Courier. I don’t know if he included any other newspapers, concerning the May 4th shooting. And, you know, there was just so much ugliness expressed and hatred of the students and of the university. I’ve always wanted to see that study and I never actually accessed it. And I think one of the students that was coming to Meeting, at that time, a Doug Wrentmore, was one of the wounded students, as I remember. And so one of the things that happened after that shooting is that a number of different individuals and groups tried to get, you might say, healing going, by getting people together to talk. And we noticed some people coming to our small Quaker Meeting who were there partly, I think, because of the shooting, you know, they wanted—

 

[Interviewer]: [00:10:30] Where were the Quaker Meetings held?

 

[Karl Liske]: At that time, they were held at my parents’ house out on Fairchild Avenue, now they’re held at the United Methodist—what is it called? Anyway—

 

[Interviewer]: So, at the time it was a small group of Quakers in Kent, and people were joining?

 

[Karl Liske]: But also, a number of other—for instance, I’m sure the Unitarians were doing that. And I think som—there were just people on their own took it upon themselves to try to get dialogue going between—and you know, one of the things that I see is, the questions is, What has changed and what has stayed the same since that shooting? And we see today the same extreme divisiveness, and lack of dialogue. I mean, a real exchange of good—what would you call it?

 

[Interviewer]: Sure, yeah. The ability for a democratic society to have civil discussion. This anger against the students that you’re talking about, do you feel like it was there and then after the shootings it just came out in the open more?

 

[Karl Liske]: Yes. Yeah, I’d say that.

 

[Interviewer]: Had you had any encounters like that with fellow coworkers before people knew you had been a student?

 

[Karl Liske]: That’s a good question. I think there’s always been, you know, that division between town and gown, for one thing. I’m trying to get my thoughts together on this.

 

[Interviewer]: And you didn’t grow up here, you came here as a college-age student.

 

[Karl Liske]: Yeah. But I had grown up in a real—a town that was dominated by the college—Oberlin College. Oberlin, Ohio. So, I was very familiar with that political or, what’s the right word? Where there was a major institution of learning that—?

 

[Interviewer]: That whole college-town dynamic.

 

[Karl Liske]: Yeah, it was, that was one of the things I liked about coming from Oberlin to Kent is that Kent had much more diversity of economy. In that way, it was more interesting.

 

[Interviewer]: Oberlin’s in a more rural setting.

 

[Karl Liske]: Yeah, it was a small town. And there wasn’t much else there. When people wanted employment, it isn’t like here, we have this huge state university that is, I think it’s the biggest employer in the county.

 

[Interviewer]: And a lot of small industry.

 

[Karl Liske]: Yes.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:14:00] Did you have any interactions with your neighbors after the shootings? People that lived in your neighborhood commenting on—?

 

[Karl Liske]: I’m sure. One of the distinct memories I have, and that is we were, at night, in bed, like twelve thirty, and we heard the sound of a helicopter coming over. And they had a spotlight on. And I might have gone out to see what was going on, and I said, “Well,” this might have been, not at the time but I knew right away the students had brought the war home. Because the helicopter was a symbol of the Vietnam War. It was such a—instrument.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah. Know a lot of people talk about how upsetting that was and how disturbing that was to have these searchlights—

 

[Karl Liske]: It was, and I talk to people who—they couldn’t get home because they’d blocked the streets. And somebody had to stay someplace overnight because they couldn’t get—there was lots of stuff I didn’t know about, but they talked about these people coming in and saying you’re going to have to close down and vacate. I can’t be specific about it.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:15:31] Back to Monday, May 4, you are coming toward campus to do your mail round. Can you talk us through just sort of visually what you saw, the National Guard?

 

[Karl Liske]: Again, it was just all this presence of—I think there was a tank parked at some entry to the university, and another place there was an armored personnel carrier, and then, you know, the soldiers with their—and I can’t remember what else. And then, of course, there was all these other events that took place. There was this—I’m not sure it was all students—that was another rumor, is that there were agitators coming from all over the country, coming here to make the most of it. And that there was the burning in downtown Kent, maybe North Water [Street], you know, there was this—I don’t know if any windows got smashed, but there was some—maybe a fire in the street. I can’t remember the details.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, that was a few days prior, that weekend, Friday night.

 

[Karl Liske]:Oh, okay, right. And that there were just all these wild rumors and I think the authorities just kind of believed them all.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:16:57] Did you see anything? Since you did a daily round on campus, did you see anything that looked unusual that way, like people you didn’t recognize or people who looked like they weren’t from Kent? Did you notice anything yourself?

 

[Karl Liske]: Boy, that is a good question. I’m sure at the time, I heard a lot of rumors. I heard rumors and—

 

[Interviewer]: Were you afraid, doing your job?

 

[Karl Liske]: Well, I had a uniform on, and so, I can go through, you know, but you mean just as an individual by myself?

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, and also, that was one question I had, were you able to get on campus? The Guard saw that you worked for the Postal Service, they didn’t stop you?

 

[Karl Liske]: No.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay. Were you afraid for your personal safety that day? Just seeing all this military presence that you mention?

 

[Karl Liske]: I don’t remember having that feeling. But I was certainly very apprehensive when I saw all that armament present. Wondering, you know, What were they expecting? I mean was this going to be an invasion or something?

 

[Interviewer]: And none of that was on campus. Did you do deliveries on Saturdays? Did you work on Saturday do you remember?

 

[Karl Liske]: That’s a good question. And I don’t remember. I’m guessing—well, there was mail delivery six days a week, and that meant that the mail would go up to campus, so maybe. What day of the week did the shooting occur?

 

[Interviewer]: Well, and it didn’t matter, it doesn’t really matter which day, I mean there must have been a day when one day you’re doing your rounds and the campus is normal and then the next day you’re doing your rounds and you see this huge military occupation.

 

[Interviewer]: That must have been a shock. And especially for someone with a Quaker background.

 

[Karl Liske]: Yeah, it was. Again, you know, What is going on? It was such a poor way to deal with it, you know. I mean it set the stage, I think, probably some people would have been reassured but others, many people would have been, especially I think the students and the faculty, would certainly be apprehensive and I’m sure some of them were really angry.

 

[Interviewer]: Do you have any memories from the rest of the day of the shootings after you got back to the Post Office? You had that encounter with a coworker.

 

[Karl Liske]: Yeah, and I’m sure there was other, I mean talking about it with fellow employees. A lot of them—maybe the ones that spoke up were sympathetic with the National Guard, or with what the government did, you know, that it was justified. There was all of this talk about some shots were heard before, I mean that there was a sniper involved and that they were just doing their job. And that there was some sympathy for the National Guardsmen, some of whom were just as young as the students and, that they’d come from some, I think, duty in Detroit, where they’d been—is that what you remember?

 

[Interviewer]: They were, they had been called up to help control a truckers’ strike that had become violent.

 

[Karl Liske]: That was it. Yeah, yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: A Teamsters’ strike.

 

[Karl Liske]: And so, I guess one of the disbeliefs was that they had this live ammunition in their guns. They weren’t just, you know, posturing.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:21:44] So, most of your coworkers that day, at least the ones who spoke up, were supportive of—

 

[Karl Liske]: Yeah, I’m sure there were some, a few others, in minority, very much. But I think everybody was because we didn’t know all the details of what happened and why it happened.

 

[Interviewer]: Right. Do you remember when you learned more about what had happened or how you learned? The evening news, or—?

 

[Karl Liske]: Well, just reading in the newspapers there was a lot of investigative journalism. I think, didn’t the Akron Beacon Journal win a prize for their reporting on it?

 

[Interviewer]: They did. They won the Pulitzer. So your family—you read the Beacon Journal—your family got that paper?

 

[Karl Liske]: Yeah, and you listened to the radio, National Public Radio. And talking to people that were there, or reading about, for instance. I’m sorry.

 

[Interviewer]: No, it’s fine. Take your time.

 

[Karl Liske]: You know the name Glenn Frank? I had him as a professor.

 

[Interviewer]: Oh, my goodness.

 

[Karl Liske]: And I remember the rule. He was one of the few faculty that really got out there with the students and was pleading with them to leave.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah. He’s credited for saving many lives that day.

 

[Karl Liske]: Right.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:23:19] Do you, could you talk for a minute about what he was like, as a professor? You had him as one of your professors in class?

 

[Karl Liske]: Well, he was just very human. And I think had good rapport with the students.

 

[Interviewer]: Was it one of your favorite classes with him?

 

[Karl Liske]: Yeah, I’d say. He just stood out as extremely human. You know, I mean.

 

[Interviewer]: He was probably a good storyteller, made his lectures interesting.

 

[Karl Liske]: Yeah, it’s so long ago, I just remember taking several geology courses because they were as demanding scientifically as, for instance, chemistry.

 

[Interviewer]: So you had more than one course with him?

 

[Karl Liske]: You know, I’m not sure. I know I took several geology courses. I don’t think necessarily—oh, I know there was one with a Carl Savage, a different geology professor. Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:24:32] Could you talk us through, maybe, the rest of that week? You know, the first few days after the shootings. What it was like on campus? What was going on with your Quaker Meeting, or you family?

 

[Karl Liske]: I just think there was this, I think, post-traumatic stress disorder. It was going on, yeah.

I mean, it was hard to believe that that could have happened, you know. I’m trying to think of—

 

[Interviewer]: Your parents were very upset?

 

[Karl Liske]: Oh, sure. Well, I think people were very upset for any number of reasons. I mean, there was the sympathy with the Guardsmen and, you know, their plight. And then, sympathy with the students and, of course, the whole huge issue of the Vietnam War, which this played a central role in. Historically, the shootings were a turning point in opposition to the war. Yeah. What was the question again about?

 

[Interviewer]: What was it like on campus? You continued doing your mail rounds even though the college had been closed.

 

[Karl Liske]: Right, that was so strange and, of course, I don’t know how long it was before everybody cleared out. I mean the students were gone. It was very hard to get access onto the campus, even as a faculty person, as I understand it. And that people had—the students and the faculty had to finish their coursework off campus.

 

[Interviewer]: Some classes were held at Oberlin, actually.

 

[Karl Liske]: At Oberlin? That’s interesting. But it was such a, I’m trying to think, sort of like in geology, they have what they call a discontinuity, where the layers below and the layers historically are—and there’s this place where there’s this break and they don’t have a history of what—it’s just it was so different from, in a sense, the past.

 

[Interviewer]: That’s an interesting analogy.

 

[Karl Liske]: But then again, as I said before, I think it’s very powerful to keep thinking about what has changed, what has stayed the same, you know, as far as the government’s ability to deal with dissent, protest, opposition. And we don’t have, like they do in Britain, this tradition of Her Majesty’s loyal—loyal opposition. In other words, you can be very critical of the administration, or of aspects of the country, and still be very patriotic and loyal. And I think this, in a sense, was a test of that. That the shootings—that you can be highly critical of the country, you can love it, but you don’t have to leave it. You know, this idea of love it or leave it, that’s not—

 

[Interviewer]: And a test of people’s First Amendment right of free speech. [00:28:24] You described earlier, before we started the recording, the next days when you were delivering mail on campus, that it was just like a ghost town and how strange that was. You didn’t see any students.

 

[Karl Liske]: Yes. It was just, you know, it was unsettling. It was just very, very unsettling. I mean, I think it was just a reflection of—what’s the term? People were in limbo. Lost.

 

[Interviewer]: Was there still mail coming and going?

 

[Karl Liske]: Oh, yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: Because some people have talked about they felt that their mail had been disrupted, but as far as you know—

 

[Karl Liske]: You know, I’m trying to remember, the campus was closed, so, the dormitories would not be getting mail. I actually had been delivering the parcels and the mail, as I remember, to—although, maybe the mail might have gone to the KSU mailroom and then they distribute it to the residence halls. But I remember taking parcels there all the time.

 

[Interviewer]: Sure, care packages for students from their parents, yeah. So, I wonder how the Kent State mailroom handled that. They had to forward everything. [00:29:56] Do you have any memories you’d like to share from more of what happened at Quaker Meeting, where you felt that students were coming to find healing?

 

[Karl Liske]: A few, I don’t know how many, but there were people coming, but I think I kind of remember maybe going to a few of those get togethers in other people’s houses, but there was this really very conscious effort to try to talk it out. People needed to, you know, really—

 

[Interviewer]: Process?

 

[Karl Liske]: Yeah, process is a good word.

 

[Interviewer]: And together in a community.

 

[Karl Liske]: Right. I think there was a certain success in that.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:30:51] Did you know—I’m doing an oral history interview later this week with a woman named Anne Andrews.

 

[Karl Liske]: Oh yes!

 

[Interviewer]: You knew her?

 

[Karl Liske]: Yeah. She came to Meeting, maybe at that time. Yes, I really like her very much, she’s a real bluestocking!

 

[Interviewer]: Were you involved in the musical [production]? Were you involved in the choral piece that was done following the shootings—you weren’t involved in any of the musical memorials or—?

 

[Karl Liske]: No. I remember, when you say memorials, I remember going to the first three or four annual memorial events, you know, walking, and I think I stood overnight, you know, where one of the students was fallen. I did that at least once, but I think I maybe went on three or four. And most recently, I did go to the memorial service and walked from—they were having—

 

[Interviewer]: The candlelight vigil for the students?

 

[Karl Liske]: No, this was the morning when they have the address, they had that whole ringing the Liberty Bell [editor’s clarification: the bell on The Commons, known as the Victory Bell] and they brought in some—I went to a number of those. But, the most recent one was where I joined a group of people from the Unitarian Church, and walked back with them to the downtown, and then they were going on to the church.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:32:27] Did you feel like those commemorations, especially in the early Seventies, do you feel like they helped people with healing and understanding?

 

[Karl Liske]: Oh yes. Oh, very much so. Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: So, you felt they were positive experiences, and you kept attending?

 

[Karl Liske]: Yeah. I think, oh, just to be with people of like-minded feelings and just sharing feelings. Yeah, I thought it was very necessary to do that and healthier healing. Healing’s a good word.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:33:12] How long did you work for the Postal Service?

 

[Karl Liske]: Thirty-eight years. I retired—

 

[Interviewer]: What year did you retire, do you remember?

 

[Karl Liske]: I know I’ve been retired twenty-three years.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay, that’s close enough! Sometime in the Nineties, maybe?

 

[Karl Liske]: Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: So, you really saw Kent State recover and then come back and grow as an institution after that historic event.

 

[Karl Liske]: Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: [00:33:47] Do you have any other memories or things you’d like to share?

 

[Karl Liske]: I’m sure I do, it’s just, as you can see, it’s struggling with the feelings to try to balance the feelings and the rational. You know, the thinking about it and the feelings are so, you know, together.

 

[Interviewer]: We can always add later. So for you, I mean, and I’ve talked to so many people who are in the same boat, fifty years later, the emotions are still very much—very powerful and very difficult.

 

[Karl Liske]: But, I know an example of, from that period, the—I think it was the Unitarians, for one thing, Unitarian church and other groups. There was a climate change demonstration here, right outside the library, and I joined that because I think probably from, you know, the tradition of protesting what you think needs to be protested against and the need for change. But as far as just getting a sense—you know, one of the things that—I know even people on the faculty said, “We got to get over, we got to get that behind us.” You know, “We have to move on.” But you can’t. The death of a child!

 

[Karl Liske]: You know, you think more people would have sympathy with the parents of these students. Gosh.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah. No, a parent’s worst nightmare. Well, I think we’ll pause here unless you have any other memories you’d like to—?

 

[Karl Liske]: I’m trying to get—

 

[Interviewer]: Let me do a—let’s pause.

 

[Karl Liske]: Okay.

 

 

[End of interview]

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