Jerry Persky, Oral History

Recorded: March 24, 2026

Interviewed by Kathleen Siebert Medicus

Transcribed by 3PlayMedia

 

[Interviewer]: This is Kate Medicus speaking on March 24, 2026. I'm located at the Kent State University Library Building on the Kent Campus. As part of the Kent State Shootings Oral History Project, we are recording an interview over the telephone today, and could you please state your name for the recording?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Jerry Persky.

 

[Interviewer]: Great. Thank you, Jerry. If I could begin with just some brief information about you, about your background, so we can get to know who you were back then. Could you tell us where you were born, where you grew up?

 

[Jerry Persky]: I was born in Cleveland, grew up in Cleveland.

 

[Interviewer]: Okay, and when did you first come to Kent State University? Was it right after high school?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, I graduated high school in '67, and I enrolled at Kent, fall of '67.

 

[Interviewer]: What were you studying? What were you majoring in? Or how many majors did you have, maybe, is a good question.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah. I focused on education, history, and social studies. And I thought I was going to be a teacher. My father was a high school teacher. And I went through my student teaching, and then I never taught a day.

 

[Interviewer]: After student teaching, that was it?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, and then I ended up working for about a year, and then I went to graduate school at Kent. And I got a master's degree in rehabilitation counseling.

 

[Interviewer]:  And what years approximately was that when you did your graduate studies? That was after the shootings?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, it was '74, '75, something like that.

 

[Interviewer]: So, when you arrived at Kent State in the fall of 1967, were you living in the dorms? Were you living on campus or were you commuting?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Oh, I was living in—oh, what's the name of that—McDowell. Is that still there?

 

[Interviewer]: I believe so. I could be wrong. I'll have to check that.

 

[Jerry Persky]: It was called Beall/McDowell. Women's dorm and the men's dorm

 

[Interviewer]: Beall/McDowell. OK, yeah, so you were living on campus.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: And I understand from what you told me before we started the recording that you were involved in the antiwar movement and protests at one point. Would you be willing to share some stories with us about that in those years, 1967, '68, '69?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Sure. Yeah, I was—I think the first involvement—well, I remember when the Black United Students walked off campus in the fall of '68, I believe it was. I remember observing them walking off campus, and I remember getting into some discussions in the student union about why they walked off. And then I remember going to some SDS [Students for a Democratic Society] meetings. SDS was a group on campus.

 

In '69, there were protests that I remember. I went to the—oh, boy, this is coming back hard.

They were trying to throw SDS off campus. There were hearings, and I marched over with a bunch of students to the Music and Speech Building and went in the building and eventually was able to get out of the building by way of an elevator, because I supported SDS.

 

[Interviewer]: And that's when students were occupying that building. Correct?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Well, there were hearings being held at the Music and Speech Building. They were trying to throw some of the SDS leaders out of school. And they actually banned—I think they banned SDS as an organization, and so a lot of people marched over there in support of SDS.

 

[Interviewer]: What was that like? Was it a really big crowd? What was it like to be part of that? How did you feel?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Well, I do remember when we marched over, there were students surrounding the building, and they were opposed to SDS. And they knew that we were coming over, I guess, and they tried to prevent us from getting into the building. And I remember that was—the adrenaline was really pumping. I mean, it was pretty tense.

 

And there were a lot of students opposed to SDS, and there were more students in support. And we were able to get into the building. And I remember walking through the building, I could see some of the hearings being held, and I knew some of the students that were being threatened with expulsion.

 

[Interviewer]: Was there campus police or city police? Was there any law enforcement that you saw when you were trying to get into the building?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, when we were marching over to the Music and Speech Building from the student auditorium, I did not see any police. And I know that some of the kids that marched over and got into the building were subsequently unable to get out. I was lucky, and I think they did arrest some people for trespassing.

 

[Interviewer]: But you were able to sneak out a back door or some elevator?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Well, we were able to get down the elevator and then we were able to get out of the back building. Yeah, I think they actually—I don't remember if they chained the building part of it, but anyway, I was able to get out.

 

[Interviewer]: Are there any other memorable protests or demonstrations from those years that come to mind that you saw?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Well, I was friends with Bill Arthrell. We were doing political work, and I remember he had staged a rally in front of the Union—something about—he was going to—oh, he was threatening to napalm a dog. And I remember when students came over there to find out what was going on, he used that as an example of what happens when they use napalm in Vietnam and Cambodia. There were periodic protests that year against the war, and I participated in some of the protests. But nothing comparable to SDS; they were organizing Days of Rage in Chicago, and I remember going to the meetings. They were pretty peaceful meetings. Nothing major going on. I mean, Kent was—it was a fairly quiet campus until, I'd say, until 1969.

 

[Interviewer]: So, the Kent SDS meetings were fairly calm?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: And what happened after that—the protest to the march to the Music and Speech Building and the hearings? Were students expelled from school? Did SDS continue to meet? Were you still involved after that?

 

[Jerry Persky]: I was involved. SDS was no longer really viable. The leaders that faced the expulsion were—I forgot now, because I was good friends with Howard Emmer and Colin Neiberger. In fact, Colin and I were fraternity brothers for a while. They were kicked off campus. They weren't allowed to be on campus. And that summer of '69, I was in Kent. I was living in Kent. And—boy, it's hard to remember. I don't think much happened in the summer of '69. In the fall of '69, things escalated a bit. There were speakers that came through Kent.

 

And then in the spring of '70, remember I went to the rally to see Jerry Rubin. He was at Kent. And everything really changed in April and May of '70. Nixon was president. Nixon was announcing an incursion. That's what kind of prompted the student movement across the country to really step up.

 

And I was downtown in Kent in May, and we stepped out of the bars. We organized a street protest. It was right after he announced that he was invading Cambodia. It would have been about May 1st of '70.

Things took a turn. There were rocks thrown, bottles thrown, downtown Kent. There was a lot of damage. And then everything from there just escalated. We had Governor Rhodes coming in. We had the National Guard.

 

[Interviewer]:  Yeah, what was it like Friday night? Can you paint a picture for us? Did they close the bars at a certain point? Were you kicked out of the bars? Or were you part of—

 

[Jerry Persky]: No, we just—we were talking, and people were really upset. It was very organic. We just kind of stepped out and started chanting and, pretty soon, the bars kind of emptied. I mean, there were probably a few hundred people right in the street. There were no police around. It was just—and then it just—from there, it just kind of ballooned.

 

People were very angry, and that's when people started throwing rocks and bottles. Some of the commercial businesses’ windows were broken. And I mean, it's just like—then finally the mayor called the governor and said, I think we need help. And it went on for probably a couple of hours downtown. It was Water Street, I think was the name of the street.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, the [main] intersection.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, there were probably half a dozen, a dozen bars, and that's where we hung out on Friday nights. And I remember it was very—it was pretty warm. But I would say the predominant mood was just anger at what was going on.

 

[Interviewer]: Did you ever feel afraid during that? Did it feel out of control?

 

[Jerry Persky]: No, I didn't feel afraid. I knew it kind of escalated out of control, but I wasn't afraid. I just felt like I was on permanent adrenaline for the whole few days there before May 4th.

 

[Interviewer]: So, at some point, you got home that Friday night, and what do you remember from the next day, from Saturday?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Saturday.

 

[Interviewer]: That would have been May 2nd, the day after the downtown [unrest].

 

[Jerry Persky]: I think there was a rally on the campus, I think, that was organized. I think we marched from dorm to dorm, asking people to come out. And we marched to the ROTC building.

 

[Interviewer]: During the day?

 

[Jerry Persky]: And there were hundreds of people. Now this was towards the later part of the day, early evening. The big march over to the ROTC building and started with rocks and bottles, and it was a symbol of the war. It wasn't popular. ROTC wasn't popular. Right in the middle of the campus, too.

 

So eventually things got crazy, and the building caught on fire. And I actually don't remember—I don't remember if people lit it on fire or it was a Molotov cocktail. I just remember it caught on fire.

 

[Interviewer]: You remember seeing the fire.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, and I remember people were yelling and screaming, and it was—there was certainly an air of excitement in seeing the building going up.

 

[Interviewer]: I'm guessing it went up pretty quickly, too. It was all wood.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, it was an old wood structure, single story. Yeah.

 

And then I remember later on, years later, people thinking, well, maybe it was set on purpose as a provocative move to justify bringing the National Guard. I don't think that's ever been resolved, but. I just remember that when the building went down, we were very excited about it.

 

[Interviewer]:  Were you there the whole time until the fire was put out?

 

[Jerry Persky]: I remember we moved away, and I think we went to the—I don't remember exactly where I was the whole time. I know we left for a while. We came back.

 

We were able to pull a lot of people out of dorms. People heard about it, and they came. I think we went to the entrance of the campus for a while, and I do remember seeing the National Guard cars and trucks driving down Main Street. I guess that's Main Street, yeah.

 

And I remember students living in apartments and houses on Main Street, fraternity houses, I think, and sorority houses, yelling at the Guard.

 

[Interviewer]: As they were coming in with their vehicles?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah. And these were students who were not necessarily protesting the war but were angered about the Guard coming onto the campus.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, their campus. Do you have any other memories from Saturday?

 

[Jerry Persky]: I don't even remember how I got back to my house, honestly. I know I went home. Yeah. Yeah, it was a long night. Those are my memories.

 

[Interviewer]: You got home late, but you did get home at some point.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah. And I lived with two or three other guys, and I remember the guy who ran the house told me, he said, “Stay away from the campus.” And I said, “I've already been there.” I think he was—I think he had gotten somebody out of jail that night, I don't know. There were curfew violations, I think, was what happened. But I was on campus pretty late.

 

[Interviewer]: So, you were living with a group of other students in a house off campus?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: Let's move to the next morning, to Sunday, May 3rd, and see what memories come up from that day.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Well, I remember going on to campus, and I remember going over to the ROTC building. And you could see—there was still some old flames—not flames, but old smoke still rising from the building. The building was pretty destroyed.

 

And I remember students were kind of moving around on campus, taking a look at things, and the Guard was there, standing around. It was a very weird day.

 

And I remember that—I remember hearing that there were plans for a rally on Monday. And I don't know what I did the rest of that Sunday. I think I just spent quite a number of hours on campus and then went back to the house, and then that was it. I don't have much in the memory of Sunday except being on the campus for a while.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, everyone says it was a gorgeous, beautiful, late spring, early summer day, and it was just quiet.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, it was sunny, and I remember seeing the ROTC building. And I remember seeing the Guard and probably talking to other people about what happened on Saturday night, because I know people were arrested for curfew violations.

 

[Interviewer]: So, Monday morning. Let's go to Monday, May 4.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, Monday. No, I remember Monday. I went to the—what's it called? Was it the Victory Bell? Is that it? On the Commons. I remember going there and there were hundreds—

 

[Interviewer]: Did you have class that morning? Did you go to any classes first? Do you remember?

 

[Jerry Persky]: No. I didn't go to any classes. I don't think I went to any classes. I was—I was so involved in politics. I really didn't care. But I remember being—and I remember seeing people I knew, a bunch of people I knew, and so we assembled at the bell. And there were a couple of speeches. We were angry about Cambodia and the Guard on campus, and then what I remember is, before noon, I remember the Guard starting to—a truck coming toward—or a Jeep coming toward the rally and issuing an order that we had to disperse.

 

And I remember yelling at the Guard, throwing some things at the truck, and there were, I don't know, hundreds of students. And I remember then the Guard started to walk toward us and started firing tear gas. That I remember. And I got some of that. Yeah, and I remember I had a handkerchief or some kind of sheet, ripped-up sheet. Got in my eye and was sort of backed up. And there were—we were on both sides of the—was it the architecture building, I guess. I was on the right side toward the dorms.

 

[Interviewer]: But still on the side with the Victory Bell and the Commons, facing the Commons?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah. Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: Did you go inside to take care of your eyes or—?

 

[Jerry Persky]: And so, we backed up. No, I never went in the building. I had that ripped-up sheet or whatever it was, and I just remember—I actually may have gone into the building just to get some water, but I was with all the other kids. And we were moving back, and then I witnessed everything that everybody else witnessed.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, but we still want to hear it because your perspective, where you were standing, what you remember, is unique.

 

[Jerry Persky]: OK, well, what I do remember is talking to people about the Guard, whether they had bullets or—I mean, live ammunition or not. And I thought to myself, they're not going to do anything with those guns and rifles. I knew Al Canfora because we did political stuff together, and I remember Al, as the Guard moved down—they went over to a practice area—I remember him waving a black flag.

And I actually knew three of the students that were killed. I knew Allison, I knew Sandy, and I knew Jeff Miller.

 

[Interviewer]: Oh, I'm so sorry.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah. And, in fact, I was pretty close with Sandy. And Allison and I kind of met again in school. We used to live in the same neighborhood in Cleveland. And so, we got reacquainted. I think there was a—oh, yeah, I know what—I forgot to tell you. In '69, there was a big national demonstration in DC, which I went to. Yeah, and then there was a demonstration in Kent in '69, and I remember meeting Allison and saying, wait, didn't you grow up in this street? Yeah, so we got reacquainted.

 

[Interviewer]:  Small town. 

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah. So, anyway, so I knew some of the people who were demonstrating. I didn't see Sandy at the rally. I didn't see Allison at the rally, but I saw some people I knew. And I was kind of on the grass next to the architecture building, and I remember seeing the Guard coming down on that practice field. They hung out for a while.

 

Some of them were bent down. Looked like they were just kind of trying to figure out what to do. And then they started marching back up. And when they started going back up toward the top of the architecture building, they turned. I remember seeing it all. And I remember hearing the noise, and I remember hitting the ground.

 

[Interviewer]: You were very close.

 

[Jerry Persky]: I was pretty close. I was so close that right behind me on the concrete, I turned, and I saw Jeff Miller. So, I probably was about 25, 30 feet from him, but I was on the grass. So, yeah, it could have been me. You know, happenstance.

 

[Interviewer]: You were fairly close to the sculpture, I think?

 

[Jerry Persky]: No, I was on the grassy area just above the road.

 

[Interviewer]: Got it.

 

[Jerry Persky]: If I was looking up, the architecture building was sort of on my left. So, I was between the architecture building and whatever dorm that was, but I was right above him because when I turned—after the shooting stopped, I turned, and I saw his body. Yeah, and I knew who he was because I knew him. But I think I was in shock.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, of course. Some instinct just told you to just hit the ground and—

 

[Jerry Persky]: Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was spontaneous. I mean, I heard the shots, and I didn't know if they were real bullets or not. I just remember, I better hit the ground, then I did.

 

[Interviewer]: I can't imagine. Of course you were in shock. That I can imagine.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, I remember just feeling dazed. I went over to his body. I remember kneeling down, and he was dead. I think I just couldn't believe what was going on, and then I started walking around. I mean, that's what everybody was doing. We were walking around, trying to get control of our situation. And I ran into some people I knew, and we decided to, I think, walk off campus.

 

And we left. And I saw an ambulance, a couple ambulances, coming through on the road. I didn't know who had been hit other than Jeff.

 

I spent the rest of the day, I think, either at my house or at a friend's house, trying to figure out what to do, and we didn't have cell phones. We didn't even have—I remember calling my folks, telling them what happened, and, yeah, they suggested I leave campus. So that's what I did.

 

[Interviewer]: Did you have difficulty reaching your parents by telephone because so many people were trying to make calls at the same time? But you were able to get through to them?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, it may have taken a while. It was late afternoon. I did reach them. I had a car, a used car, that I owned, and I remember driving. I remember I left campus and drove to Cleveland.

 

[Interviewer]: Were you by yourself, or did you give other people rides?

 

[Jerry Persky]: No, I was by myself. Drove home, and then the next few days were—then, of course, it was on the news. It hit national and international news. I mean, it was—yeah, I remember the first impressions I had from the media was that they were saying, oh, it was—students were violent. I think they weren't even accurate on how many people were killed and injured. It was just crazy stuff.

 

I remember going to a rally at Case Western Reserve, and that was just a few days after the shooting. And it was a big rally. I mean, it's just thousands of people, and then I somehow connected with a friend of mine who was involved in SDS. And we decided to meet up back in Kent. And so, I remember going back to Kent, and we decided to go out on the road and do some speaking at different campuses.

 

Let's see, it was Ritchie Hess and me, maybe a couple other people. We took a ride. We went to—where did we go? Oh, man, we spoke at a few schools. Indiana, someplace in Ohio. I can't really remember, but, yeah, we spoke about what happened at Kent.

 

We were gone maybe on the road for a week or two, and then—by then there was a curfew at Kent. The school was shut down. I mean, it was nationwide. There was a national student strike. It was really heavy.

 

I mean, my roommates and I, two roommates and I, who were living in the house, decided we were going to get out of Ohio. And we decided to take a trip. We were going to hitchhike to California.

 

So, this would have been—this was probably in June of 2007—1970, I'm sorry. And so, we hitched. My two roommates and I hitched across the country. I remember we stopped in—boy, we stopped at Lawrence, Kansas, University of Kansas, and we spoke—they had an underground newspaper, and we spoke with them about what happened in Kent. And then we went to Denver and Boulder. And then we ended up in San Francisco.

 

[Interviewer]: Do you mind telling me the names of your two roommates?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Sure. Fred Hall.

 

[Interviewer]: Fred Hall. OK.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah. He was my fraternity brother. He's African American. And Fritz Schwab.

 

[Interviewer]: Fritz?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Fritz was my other roommate and he was an artist. And so, the three of us did this trip together, which was pretty amazing that we were able to get rides, because in those days, you could hitchhike and there were no real fears about us being dangerous, although we were long-haired. Fritz had a big afro. I mean, not Fritz. Fred had a big afro.

 

[Interviewer]: What was your fraternity?

 

[Jerry Persky]: AEPi.

 

[Interviewer]: OK, AEPi?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, Alpha Epsilon Pi.

 

[Interviewer]: Alpha Epsilon Pi.

 

[Jerry Persky]: That's actually where I learned about SDS because [INAUDIBLE] and Ritchie Hess were in AEPi, and they were in SDS. And they're the ones had told me they were organizing on campus, and that's why I went to the meetings.

 

[Interviewer]: I'm curious how your parents, how your family, felt about this summer, hitchhiking to California, adventure. Where was your family in all of this? 

 

[Jerry Persky]: I honestly don't remember if they even knew.  I'm not sure I told them. They knew I was in town. Yeah, they knew I was in Kent, but I don't think I was communicating with them. So, I don't think they knew.

 

[Interviewer]: OK. You spared them that worry. 

 

[Jerry Persky]: But let me say this. My dad was a history teacher, and I think that he was pretty sympathetic with us. I remember my mom was just so angry about that they'd killed us. They were pretty liberal, so it wasn't any debates with them about what was going—I mean, I'm sure they were worried about me and—but, yeah, we ended up out in California. That was a fantastic experience because we were gone probably a good six to eight weeks.

 

And then there is one story that was interesting. We were in San Francisco. We stayed at a youth hostel. Fred did not leave Denver. He went to Boulder with us, and he decided to stay in Denver.

 

So, Fritz and I were in San Francisco, and we decided to hitchhike down to come a different way home. And we were on the PCH [Pacific Coast Highway], which is Route 1, which is a beautiful road on the coast. We ended up getting picked up by a bunch of hippies in a van—and drove down together, down through LA and ended up in Riverside. And we were all pretty high. It was good drugs, and in Riverside, I remember there was an earthquake. It was my first exposure to an earthquake.

 

[Interviewer]: Oh my gosh, just what you needed.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, I know. It was a pretty big earthquake because I remember we went through downtown Riverside, and a lot of glass was shattered and on the street.

 

And then Fritz and I hitchhiked home. We hitchhiked back to Ohio, back to Kent. Back to Kent. And the school was still shut down, but I do remember that there was—Music and Speech Building was open. I think maybe by the end of—toward the end of the summer, the curfew might have been lifted, because I auditioned for a theater play, and we did it. We performed the play in the Music and Speech Building.

 

[Interviewer]:  What was the play?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Oh, it was called “East Lynne.” It was an old comedy.

 

We did the play and then—yeah, and then that summer, also got involved with the Yippies. And so, we formed a Yippie chapter, and in the fall of '70 when the school reopened, we staged a big rally. And we issued demands and marched to the Administration Building and met with President—I guess it was White, President White, at the time. Issued demands about the campus, and I don't—and then there were a bunch of arrests. I mean, I got arrested a few times. So, yeah, the fall of '70 was pretty heavy times. There was a lot going on.

 

[Interviewer]: Just a question back to the summer trip when you were in California. Were you finding yourself telling what happened at Kent State to people you met? Was that kind of something you were always talking about?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, especially when we were in Berkeley. We were meeting people and, of course, Berkeley had its own huge riot and demonstration leading up to the May 4th. I mean, because Kent was not—Kent was not the place you were reading about as far as activism. It was Berkeley, it was Madison. It was Columbia.

 

And here's Kent State, which is in a small town in Ohio, and at that point, not really known for activism. But I remember at Berkeley, people had flags—Remember Kent State. And then right after Kent, Jackson State took a hit. I think two students were murdered there.

 

[Interviewer]: Just over a week later, yeah.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, and it was May 14th or something, but yeah. And I remember, when we were hitchhiking, I do remember one experience where we were on the I [interstate highway], I guess it was the I 70. I forgot the interstate, but we were picked up by a cop. And he wanted to take us to jail, took us off the freeway.

 

Yeah, I mean, that was—we didn't have—that was really the only serious run-in. But, yeah, pretty much where we were, especially when we were hitchhiking down Route 1, we were talking to people about who we were and where we came from. And everybody was kind of angry.

 

[Interviewer]: Thank you. Back to being back at Kent in the fall, you were in that big rally, making the demands of the university administration. That was a huge crowd, correct?

 

[Jerry Persky]: It was a very big crowd, and it was in the newspapers. And us Yippie folks were trying to create a sense of positivity on campus, so we wrote up some songs. We staged some big rallies. There were a bunch of people involved.

 

Bill Arthrell was involved. I was involved. Jodie Zahler, I mean, there were just a bunch of people. And I was living—I had moved. We were living in another house with some SDS’ers. And Howie Emmer, who was a friend of mine who I lived with, he couldn't be back on campus. He was one of the four that was—he had done six months in Portage County jail for inciting riots.

 

So he couldn't be on campus, so we had one rally where he was on Main Street, but he was not on campus—speaking to a crowd.

 

[Interviewer]: He's on Main Street, just on the other side of the border of campus.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah. Yeah, there was a lot going on. I got arrested. We staged a rally against ROTC. We organized a march among ROTC. We threw marshmallows at them, demanded that they be removed from campus, and then I got busted for that. So, yeah, it's kind of foggy now, but—

 

[Interviewer]: These times that you were arrested, were you in custody overnight? Was it relatively minor, and then you were able to get out? Or did you have any hearings? What was that like?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Well, yeah, I spent the weekend in Portage County jail. I think that was the marshmallow charge—I'm not really sure which charge it was, but, yeah, I was able to get out. And then after the shootings that fall '70, and then I think in the '71, we had some big marches. We had a sit-in. I think it was a sit-in at the library—not the library. Oh, yeah. It must have been. The old library used to be Rockwell Hall, I think. Yeah, I think that was still a library at the time. We had a big sit-in. There were probably a good 500,000 students, and I remember we were busted for that. I remember speaking to—

 

[Interviewer]: And that was '71 or fall of '70, after the shootings?

 

[Jerry Persky]: I think it was—it was after the shooting. It must have been 1970 or '71, and I remember I helped to organize that sit-in. And I remember we weren't going to get out. We raised certain demands—I forgot what they were—but I remember getting a call from the governor's office, some kind of proposition that if we gave up the sit-in, they wouldn't charge us. And I think we—I don't remember what happened. I think we turned it down, and we got arrested. Yeah. And there was no SDS anymore, but there was the Yippies. And then I think that fall in early '72, we started the May 4th Coalition.

 

So, I was active. I was active well after the shootings until about '73. I think I graduated in '73, probably a year late. I don't know. I had a number of incompletes, so—I dropped a lot of courses, yeah. I was not paying much attention to academics.

 

[Interviewer]: What was your situation with the draft? Were you worried? How close were you to being drafted? Or how much was that a part of your—

 

[Jerry Persky]: Well, I remember because I dropped a lot of classes. I was 1A for a while, and I was a little bit concerned. But we had all burned draft cards, and I do remember the lottery. I don't remember what year that was, but there was a lottery. I got a fairly high draft number, so I didn't think I was going to be drafted because I was from the city, Cleveland area. Well, to get something in the 200s meant probably not being drafted.

 

[Interviewer]: So, you weren't real strongly motivated by being careful about staying in classes and keeping your student deferment, and you weren't super worried.

 

[Jerry Persky]: No. Oh, one other thing that I do remember is when we were arrested and taken to Portage County jail, I remember my mother came down in support. Which, for her, that was pretty amazing. Yeah, I remember her, seeing her.

 

[Interviewer]:  That's really amazing. Did you have a lawyer for any of that?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, I had a lawyer. They tried to throw me off campus. They tried to throw me out of school because we were selling—oh, we had a newspaper. I forgot to mention that. We did start a newspaper in Kent. Oh, what was the name of that paper?

 

[Interviewer]: And this was mainly the Yippies?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, one of them was called Dragonfly. Dragonfly.

 

[Interviewer]: Dragonfly? OK.

 

[Jerry Persky]: I think that was the name of the paper, but the other one was called—oh, man, wow. Let me think. Something city. What was—Stump City, that was the name.

 

[Interviewer]: Stump? OK.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Stump City.

 

[Interviewer]: That sounds familiar, actually.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah. The people I was living with, we started a newspaper—two of them.

 

 Dragonfly I started with Howie Emmer and Nancy Kurshan and a couple other people that we were living together, but anyway, we were selling—I think it must have been Stump City. We were selling it on campus in front of the Student Union, and we were busted.

 

And they scheduled hearings, and so we got lawyers who were active in defending students at Kent represented us. And so, we had a hearing—It was me and Jerry Alter were the two people that were facing hearings, and we were represented. And of course, the charges were dropped. They didn't throw us out of campus. I mean, it was craziness. They were coming up with rules that you couldn't distribute newspapers without a permit, and it was just the administration reacting in ridiculous ways.

 

 Yeah, there were lawyers around all the time. I remember Bill Kunstler was in town from New York.

 

[Interviewer]: Could you say that name again? I think the phone—

 

[Jerry Persky]: Bill Kunstler.

 

[Interviewer]: Oh, Kunstler. Of course. Yeah.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, he's the one that represented the Chicago Seven. He was one of the lawyers representing Chicago Seven. So, he was in town because they indicted—oh, so what happened is they indicted twenty-five students.

 

They had a grand jury in Kent. I was subpoenaed, and they basically wanted to show me photographs and have me name names, which I refused to do.

 

Yeah. And so, they didn't indict me, thank goodness, but they indicted twenty-five people. I think Bill Arthell was one of the ones indicted. And so, the house I lived in, we had a meeting. There were a whole bunch of people there. And so, I think that grand jury indictment—those grand jury indictments, I think they were suppressed or rejected. I'm sorry about the chronology. I just can't remember what happened first and what happened—yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: Right. We'll get a timeline, and people can look at the timeline while they're listening. It's fine.

 

[Jerry Persky]: OK. One thing, though, that was interesting—everybody from around the country was coming to Kent after the shootings. Joan Baez. Ginsberg was reading poetry. What's his name, the author?

 

James Michener came to Kent. I got a call from one of the people that was working with him. A lady. I can't think of her name. Really nice lady. And she called me and said, look, James Michener's in town. He wants to—he's considering writing a book about what happened. Would you be willing to meet with him? I said sure. So, we met James Michener at a hotel in town, and they arranged for interviews with different students. And so, I spent quite a bit of time interviewing with her about what happened, and then of course he did, he came out with a book. So it was just—

 

[Interviewer]: Was that interview recorded? Do you remember if they were recording you during that interview?

 

[Jerry Persky]: I think so. I think so, either recording or she was taking notes. But I remember spending quite a bit of time with her.

 

[Interviewer]: Are you quoted in the book? Do you know?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yes.

 

[Interviewer]: Did you have a camera? Were you taking pictures at various events?

 

[Jerry Persky]: No, I didn't have a camera, but I was photographed quite a bit. And there were actually some videos and it’s funny that you asked about that, because my wife sent me something just the other day, some lost footage of something that happened. And periodically, I've received either texts or email, or maybe even on Facebook, videos that were taken of me at rallies.

 

[Interviewer]: So, you're in touch with people—with some of the—

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah. I'm Facebook friends with a guy named—what's his name? I think it's Bill Ling.

 

[Interviewer]: Bill what? What was it?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Ling. Ling, I think.

 

[Interviewer]: Ling? OK.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, L-I-N-G. And I think he's got some videos of some of the rallies, so I've been able to see some things. I haven't seen the thing that my wife sent me, but it was some lost footage.

 

[Interviewer]: Do you have memories from any of the early commemoration events, May 4, 1971, for example, the first commemoration? Do you remember that?

 

[Jerry Persky]: I remember going to a couple of the commemorations until we left Kent. My wife and I got married in 1975, and we moved to California. So, I guess up until '75, I probably attended—I think I remember one was with Jane Fonda, but I don't remember what year that was. I remember one with—Jesse Jackson was at one.

 

I haven't been back to Kent for many, many years, so I think the last time I was in Kent might have been 1999. It was an SDS reunion during the—I don't even remember if that was during May 4th, but that was the last time I was in Kent. Yeah. But I remember the early commemoration rallies were big. It was still fresh in people's minds, and—I missed the big demonstrations and rallies around the gym. I was gone by then.

 

[Interviewer]: Oh, later in the Seventies. Yeah, yeah.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, but I was in touch with Bill Arthrell and Tom Grace and some of the people that were still around.

 

[Interviewer]: You mentioned that you knew Sandy Scheuer pretty well. Did you know her family at all? Did you ever meet with her parents afterwards?

 

[Jerry Persky]: I went to the funeral. There was a big funeral in Youngstown, I think it was, and a bunch of us drove there to attend the funeral. That was really sad.

 

[Interviewer]: That had to have been. I know that meant the world, though, to her family that so many students were expressing their condolences that way.

 

[Jerry Persky]: And I never knew Allison's parents, but I remember that the parents were really angry and upset and sad and—and they ended up being, I think, plaintiffs in the lawsuit.

 

[Interviewer]: Did you know Jeff Miller's family at all, or did you meet his family?

 

[Jerry Persky]: No. Never met his family. I met him a couple of times. I actually met him through Sandy, I think. I went to Sandy's house, and he was there. And we met a couple of times, and that was it.

 

[Interviewer]: I don't have any other questions that are coming to mind right away. So, you graduated in 1973?

 

[Jerry Persky]: I think it was '73, and I was working for about a year. And then in '74, I think, I started getting my master's, and I think I graduated in '75.

 

[Interviewer]: Was your wife also a Kent State student, and was she here in 1970?

 

[Jerry Persky]:  Yeah. Well, so she and I—her name's Nancy—she and I met in the summer of '70. We were taking a bus. I think we were taking a bus on the campus, and we met in summer of '70. She was a new student. She would come in for the summer and she was living in—what was it? Small Group Housing, way out on the edge of campus? And we were friends, and then she was a student at Kent. And then in '72, I think, we started dating, ended up living together for a while. And she was in Vista for a year. I was working and she was in Vista. And then—yeah, we ended up leaving in '75 or '76 for California. She graduated from Kent also.

 

[Interviewer]: You mentioned a woman named Nancy who was part of the underground or the alternate newspapers, alternative newspapers. Is that the same Nancy or a different person?

 

[Jerry Persky]: That's a different Nancy. That was Nancy Kurshan.

 

It brings up a question. I still have a lot of—I have a box full of stuff from Kent, and I remember my friend, Tom Grace, came out to California, and he and I went through the box. And he said, you got to turn these into the library at Kent, and I said, OK, I'll get to it. And, I haven't gotten to it, but I mean, I’ve  got a treasure trove of stuff about SDS, about rallies, underground newspapers. I think I have a copy of Dragonfly.

 

[Interviewer]: That'd be amazing. I would love to see that.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, but I don't know how to—I don't even know how to go about getting stuff to Ohio.

 

[Interviewer]: Well, we can help you with that. I'll put you in touch with the May 4 Archivist. She makes all the determinations of what we take in and we'll help you with that. Don't worry.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Well, that would be great. It's sitting in Santa Monica in a box. I mean, it's—I don't think—Tom couldn't believe what I had. He said, you got to get this to Ohio.

 

[Interviewer]: To be continued, that conversation. 

 

[Jerry Persky]: OK, great.

 

[Interviewer]: I don't have any other follow-up questions. I guess I would just ask if there's anything you'd like to share about how these experiences kind of—what you carried with you later on in life, how what you went through in the '70s affected you over the course of your lifetime and your career, even.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Well, I'll tell you this. In the fall of '75, I think it was, we were in Ohio, and I remember seeing an ad for a progressive law school that had started by the National Lawyers Guild and other organizations. And I remember seeing it. It was in LA. And I remember thinking—and I had been busted a few times and had to deal with lawyers—and thinking, Gee, maybe I ought to go to law school. And my wife suggested, why don't you write to the law school and see if you qualify.

 

And I remember writing to People's College of Law, and they said, Well, if you're interested, file an application and we'll set up an interview. And so, I remember setting up an interview with a guy I knew from Kent, from activist days, named Tony Walsh. He was a lawyer in Cleveland, and he had been at Kent State. And I remember meeting with him in his office, and everything that happened when I was at Kent kind of grounded me in the idea of becoming a progressive lawyer.

 

And so, I got in. And that's what led me to go to LA, to go to People's College of Law, which was a progressive law school, yeah. And I was in LA, and I graduated—from '76 to ‘80, and I graduated in '80. And I became a lawyer in the end of 1980.

 

So that kind of changed—Kent State changed my life, the whole thing that happened.

 

[Interviewer]: That was a path you hadn't considered, but it all came together.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Exactly. Right.

 

[Interviewer]: And are you retired now? You had a whole career practicing law?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, I did 42 years of people's law. I represented disabled people and I retired in 2023. And we've been out in California since '76, so we—I've spent more time in California than I did really in Ohio.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, at this point. That was a rewarding career, I'm guessing.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, it was a rewarding career. I felt good about it, and I was still active but not nearly as active as I was in Kent. But we went to the No Kings Day rallies, and so, yeah.

 

[Interviewer]: I guess I would just close with just asking you if there's anything else that pops into your mind that we haven't covered, any other little snippet or story you wanted to share that we didn't get to.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, I'm sure when I hang up with you, I'll come up with fifty other things, but—

 

[Interviewer]: Well, we can always do an addendum if that happens.

 

[Jerry Persky]: I think it was just a pretty—I feel like I had a pretty amazing life in the sense of the experiences I had, the good and the bad. I mean, the shootings. And then of course, the song from Crosby, Stills, and Nash, every time I hear it, it still kind of gives me goosebumps. I've heard a million times.

 

Yeah, it was just those years from '67 to basically '75 were the most formative years, so I don't think I have any—I don't really have regrets.

 

[Interviewer]: OK, about anything you did or—

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah. I mean, I regret that there were people killed. That's a regret. It was so unnecessary and so—and, you know, the fact that people really weren't held accountable, it just burns me. I'm sure you've heard that from everybody you've done an interview with.

 

[Interviewer]: Yeah, but everybody has their own twist on it. Is it something you think about daily at this point? Does it come to mind?

 

[Jerry Persky]: I don't think about it daily. I don't think about it daily. But the politics of the day, I would not be surprised if it happened again. I don't feel like we—I don't think we learned from the mistakes, and I think the government, I think, especially Trump, I think there's amnesia. People forget.

 

I mean, I'll say this. When I was a lawyer, and I had my diplomas on the wall, and people would say, Kent. And some people would say, didn't something happen there? And other people kind of knew what happened.

 

By the way, this is something that's interesting. I went to Cuba with the Venceremos Brigade back in the Eighties. And when I went down there, there was a school, an elementary school, the Martyrs’ Day Kent, which was named after the Kent State Shooting, people that were killed, and we went to that school.

 

[Interviewer]: Were you there as a lawyer?

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, it was when I—well, I went twice to Cuba, and one time with the Venceremos Brigade and the other time as a lawyer.

 

It may have been when I was—I don't remember which. I think it was when I was a lawyer. We went down with a lawyers’ delegation, and we went to Cuba. And, yeah, we went to the school, and I was pretty impressed with that, that they knew and honored what happened at Kent—because it was international.

 

But, like, getting back to my thoughts of the day, I just wouldn't be surprised if something like that happened again, and of course, what happened in Minneapolis, demonstrators being shot and killed. I mean, that's the tragedy. We just don't learn from what's happened.

 

[Interviewer]: Events like that must bring these memories back to you very vividly, sure.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah.

 

[Interviewer]:  Jerry, thank you so much for taking so much time to share these stories and memories with the oral history project. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Yeah, I'm glad to have participated. It took a while, but we got it done.

 

[Interviewer]: Better late than never.

 

[Jerry Persky]: Right.

 

[Interviewer]: Thank you. I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording.

 

[End of Recording]

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