Larry Raines, Oral History

Recorded: June 5, 2026

Interviewed by Liz Campion

Transcribed by 3PlayMedia

 

[00:00:01.56] [Interviewer]: This is Liz Campion, Director of Special Collections and Archives speaking on Friday, June 5th, 2026. As part of the Kent State Shootings Oral History Project, we are recording an interview over the telephone today. Could you please state your name for the recording?

 

[00:00:21.92] [Larry Raines]: Larry Raines.

 

[00:00:24.24] [Interviewer]: Thank you, Larry. I would like to begin with some brief information about your background, so we can get to know you a little bit better. Could you tell us where you were born and where you grew up?

 

[00:00:37.20] [Larry Raines]: Born and raised in Buffalo, New York.

 

[00:00:42.60] [Interviewer]: And when did you come to Ohio?

 

[00:00:47.92] [Larry Raines]: I was in the class of 1968, and I left in 1972 with one course short of graduation, which I took a year later at the University of Buffalo. I officially graduated in '73.

 

[00:01:10.13] [Interviewer]: And what brought you to Kent State University?

 

[00:01:16.49] [Larry Raines]: A recommendation from my eighth-grade English teacher who was a friend of the family also.

 

[00:01:24.93] [Interviewer]: What was your major when you first arrived as a student?

 

[00:01:30.65] [Larry Raines]: Political science.

 

[00:01:34.45] [Interviewer]: Were you involved in any student organizations? And if so, can you describe your role in that organization?

 

[00:01:44.53] [Larry Raines]: I was head basketball manager of the freshman basketball team.

 

[00:01:52.21] [Interviewer]: And what did that role entail?

 

[00:01:55.97] [Larry Raines]: As part of the basketball, the freshman basketball team. Back then, there was not just one team. Freshmen were not allowed to participate in varsity basketball team. So all freshmen had their own separate leagues, so to speak. And I would manage the basketball freshman team.

 

[00:02:20.78] [Interviewer]: When you first arrived at Kent State, where did you live? Were you on campus or off campus?

 

[00:02:28.54] [Larry Raines]: I was one of the first residents at White Hall in the Tri Tower complex.

 

[00:02:35.18] [Interviewer]: Can you describe your views on the Vietnam War when you first arrived on campus?

 

[00:02:43.66] [Larry Raines]: My views were very negative. There was a lot of anger and hatred. And I was seeing some friends killed and a total waste of American lives over in Southeast Asia that didn't need it to be.

 

[00:03:06.63] [Interviewer]: How would you describe the prevailing attitudes or mood amongst the students in that spring of 1970?

 

[00:03:17.91] [Larry Raines]: Because of what President Nixon did on April 29 [editor’s clarification: On April 30^th, President Richard Nixon addressed the nation, announcing that the war was expanding into Cambodia] there were extreme anger. People were out of their wits. People were so angry that this ongoing war was going on. People were angry at watching Walter Cronkite say how many American deaths were happening each week.

 

And I myself, remember when he said there were 500 American deaths the week before. I can't describe the feeling that I had when I heard that number and that it just tore me apart.

 

[00:04:08.08] [Interviewer]: How politically involved or active would you describe yourself at the time? And did you participate in any protest or political organizations?

 

[00:04:22.92] [Larry Raines]: Yes, I was part of the Oakland Police demonstration in my freshman year [editor’s clarification: Members of Black United Students and Students for a Democratic Society occupied the Student Activities Center on November 13, 1968]. I actually were part of the sit-in and the [Student Activities Center] building, I forgot the name of the building. But I was always around, always participating. But I wasn't a leader. And I wasn't really vocal, but I was always around, always taking part.

 

[00:04:55.57] [Interviewer]: Can you describe what the protest was in relation to the Oakland Police being on campus?

 

[00:05:04.85] [Larry Raines]: The Oakland Police were known at that time to be a very racist police force, and they were on campus to recruit police officers for their force. And the Black Student Union and a number of other people just came together to try and block them from having a successful recruitment.

 

[00:05:31.33] [Interviewer]: Prior to your time at Kent State, when you were in Buffalo, did you participate in any protests there?

 

[00:05:40.13] [Larry Raines]: Yes, I did at the University of Buffalo, which was a very liberal and radicalized student body. And they had numerous demonstrations there, and I did participate in a couple.

 

[00:05:53.92] [Interviewer]: Was your family aware of the protests that were taking place on Kent State's campus? And if so, did any of them communicate their feelings about the protest or the war?

 

[00:06:07.82] [Larry Raines]: My parents were very conservative, but they were in favor of the war. Yes, they were aware of the protest.

 

I, actually, after on Friday, the 1st, May 1st, after the protest on the Commons, I actually went back to Buffalo for Friday night and Saturday. And I had discussions with my family about what was going on. And I did come back early Sunday morning from Buffalo.

 

[00:06:49.03] [Interviewer]: Were those conversations, would you consider those constructive? Or was there a little hostility there? What kind of discussion were you met with?

 

[00:07:01.07] [Larry Raines]: It was just talking over each other's heads.

 

[00:07:07.75] [Interviewer]: Do you remember the environment in your classes in that spring of 1970 in the lead up to May 4?

 

[00:07:19.91] [Larry Raines]: That's an interesting question. There were always discussions among people with long hair. Back then, we always used to joke either you were long-haired or short-haired.

 

So, if you were talking to people who had long hair, you knew what their feelings were. If you were talking to people who had short hair, for the most part, you knew what their feelings were. However, those first two years, I had short hair because I was manager of the basketball team and I couldn't have long hair.

 

However, after the shootings, I resigned my position as manager of the basketball team and I grew my hair. Actually, I had the biggest Afro on campus.

 

[00:08:25.96] [Interviewer]: That's interesting that hair was such a telltale sign of where you kind of were in terms of political or activism. Prior to the shootings, what was your sense of how local Kent community members perceived the Kent State students?

 

[00:08:48.26] [Larry Raines]: I couldn't answer that because I really didn't interact with any locals.

 

[00:08:53.56] [Interviewer]: No problem. You mentioned going back to Buffalo the weekend before May 4. When you got back to--

 

[00:09:05.74] [Larry Raines]: No, it was the weekend of May 4. On May 1st, I was on campus for the demonstration where we buried the Constitution. And then a couple hours later, I drove to Buffalo—stayed in Buffalo all day Saturday. And very, very Sunday morning, I hopped back in the car, and I came back to Kent. And it was only a three-and-a-half-hour drive from Kent to Buffalo, the way I drove.

 

So, I was on campus probably around 10:30, eleven o'clock in the morning on Sunday. I wasn't there Friday night, was the downtown demonstration, and I wasn't on campus for the burning of the ROTC building.

 

[00:09:52.11] [Interviewer]: Can you walk me through the burying of the Constitution? What that event entailed or what you remember?

 

[00:10:35.15] [Larry Raines]: Well, I recall it was—I do recall that people were gathering on the Commons in protest of what happened the night before and the announcement of going into Cambodia. I had some really good friends from Buffalo and Syracuse that I was close with, one being Tom Grace and the other being a guy by the name of Michael Black.

 

I just moseyed down. I went to the Commons and a whole bunch of other people did. And Michael Black and I were sitting together during the protest. And again, it was just another way for the students to protest and extend their anger towards what was happening in Vietnam.

 

[00:11:35.76] [Interviewer]: When you arrived back to Kent State, what was your first reaction to seeing the National Guard on campus?

 

[00:11:45.21] [Larry Raines]: Well, I was aware of it. I had seen pictures of it on TV, and it angered me, of course. I mean, I just had a feeling of they were invading my life, my presence, my education, my ability to protect something that is an American right.

 

[00:12:12.17] [Interviewer]: How did you interpret the Guard's actions and presence prior to the shootings? Did you have any conversations or run-ins with the National Guard prior to that day?

 

[00:12:24.85] [Larry Raines]: No, I did not.

 

[00:12:25.99] [Interviewer]: In your narrative, you describe speaking with Dean Kahler the evening before the shootings. What stands out to you most about that conversation?

 

[00:12:39.74] [Larry Raines]: The conversation we had the night before?

 

[00:12:41.86] [Interviewer]: Yes.

 

[00:12:45.32] [Larry Raines]: Well, he was somebody who was a little confused, somebody who was trying to get a grasp on making sure nothing happened as far as getting arrested, which was really the main focus of, how do we prevent getting arrested? And that was my whole premise. I said, “Just keep your eyes on me at all times. I'll get us out of there.”

 

[00:13:20.46] [Interviewer]: Do you remember how you were made aware of the rally taking place that Monday?

 

[00:13:35.54] [Larry Raines]: Yeah, from the day before, from the night before Sunday night, there was always talk that we were going to get back together on the Commons the next day to protest, the National Guard being on campus. Then again, the atrocities going on in Vietnam.

 

[00:13:58.67] [Interviewer]: Can you walk us through the events of May 4 as you experienced them?

 

[00:14:07.51] [Larry Raines]: In the morning, Dean Kahler and I got together. We both lived on the fourth floor of Wright Hall. And we started walking together. I remember wearing a tan jacket. I don't recall what Dean was wearing.

 

And I recall walking through the Prentice Hall parking lot when midway through, actually, the spot where Dean pulled out of his pocket, a plastic bag soaking with two bandannas soaking in water. It was in the middle of the parking lot. My recollection about the same spot where Sandy [Scheuer] was killed.

 

And he gave me one bandanna and we kind of laughed, and we knew that the tear gas eventually would be permeating the air, so this would help us to withstand the tear gas for a while.

 

We walked to Prentice Hall and then we walked down to Blanket Hill and we were on the outer edge. If you're looking out the Commons on the right side of the crowd on the fringe.

 

And then the National Guard kept announcing, There is no illegal rallies, no illegal rallies. And we were saying, No more war pigs off campus—and a few other expletives in our slogans.

 

Then just before the tear gas started to fly, I looked around and Dean wasn't near me. He later told me years later, actually, he told me that he felt more comfortable on higher ground. And it's too bad because had he stayed with me, that probably would have been a different outcome for him.

 

When eventually the tear gas started to go, I ran up on the left side of Taylor Hall, which really is toward the Prentice Hall parking lot. Dean Kahler told me that he ran up on the opposite end of Taylor Hall toward the Pagoda, back down into the parking lot.

 

[00:16:56.26] When I got to the parking lot, I kind of, like, hung out toward the fence, picked up a couple rocks and threw them at the National Guard who were on the practice football field. But of course, they were so far back and whatever I threw got nowhere near them.

 

And then I remember that the National Guard started firing tear gas at us. Some of the students actually picked up the canisters, threw it back at the National Guard, and they in turn threw it back at us. I found out also later in conversation with Dean, that we were pretty much in the same vicinity when all this was going on.

 

When the National Guard started to leave the practice field and head toward the Pagoda, I followed them in a parallel direction. I'm trying to think, obviously, Dean—when the National Guard left the field and got up close to the Pagoda, Dean must have gone behind them where I was parallel with them.

 

When the shooting started, my hand was actually on the lamp post of the access road where it connected to the sidewalk, going up to Taylor Hall. When I first heard the sound of the bullets, I didn't think there were bullets. I had no reason to think they were real. I thought it was just more tear gas.

 

But when I turned to run, my eyes focused on a downed student, which happened to be Jeffrey Miller, and he was about ten to fifteen yards to me on my right—and I saw blood. And that was the point when I realized that it was real bullets.

 

I just took cover behind a car, the first car I could find, which happened to be a Volkswagen. Actually, I think there were a couple Volkswagen cars in the pictures. You see one which is closer to the field, and there's one closer to—further away on the other side of the parking lot.

 

[00:19:49.49] And I took cover behind that Volkswagen. And when I looked straight up, I saw a friend of mine, Michael Black, who I grew up with in Buffalo. And Michael was up on the Hill. And I knew it was Michael because he was a big, burly, red-headed guy always wearing the same brown leather jacket—I knew it was him.

 

He was picking up somebody to get him out of the range of the shooting. And as it happened, that guy he picked up was Tom Grace. Now Tom and I were roommates at freshman orientation in August of 1968. We became friends then, and we maintained our friendship and especially since political thoughts aligned together. And so I didn't know it was Tom at that point, obviously, but I knew it was Michael.

 

When the shooting finally stopped after thirteen seconds, though, it just seemed like eternity. It just seemed like a long time. I was in complete shock. I just stood up. I stood there for a few minutes and completely dazed as to what went on.

 

And then I finally said, I got to go see if I can help somebody. I just turned around and walked toward the back of the parking lot or the front of the parking lot, whichever you want to call it. And I came upon Sandy. And I knew it was Sandy because we were mutual friends in Tri-Towers and hanging out in different places. And I just kneeled down and cried out and touched her forehead and said, “Why Sandy?” All she ever wanted to do was just get a good education, have a good time in college and move on with her life.

 

And, I mean, I didn't realize she was dead. I thought she was very severely injured, and they were like she wasn't really moving. They didn't realize that eventually, soon thereafter, actually, some guys picked her up and took her to another spot. But she didn't make it, obviously—I had that gut feeling.

 

[00:22:45.68] So after that, again, that was a double shock for me. And I was just shaking my head, What's going on? Why? And I just kept moving around and taking in all the death and destruction and the screaming, and the moaning, and people screaming.

 

And then finally, the ambulances started coming. And at the same time, I'm looking around for Dean and I couldn't find him. I had no idea where he was. Not realizing that he'd been shot. But eventually, I came upon Dean. He was already strapped in a gurney, and he was just about ready to be put into the ambulance when the medics told me that he'd been shot in the back—but he was alive. And that gave me a sense, thank God, he was alive.

 

After all this chaos, most of us, went down to this Blanket Hill and the people were just sitting on Blanket Hill. The shock was just too heavy of a lift for people to do anything. We were no longer screaming or yelling at the National Guard. It was silent mob murmurs of people talking, but it was just like somebody hit a wall, like we hit something and we were paralyzed in a sense of what to do.

 

I eventually meandered over to Steve Sharoff, who was a student protest leader, and Dr. Frank, Glenn Frank. And I took by when they went up to the National Guard and I was in hearing distance of what they were saying and talking to with the National Guardsmen.

 

And I remember them saying to the Guard [inaudible], “…Everybody sit down, stay there, nothing's happening. They are all mourning and just freaking out and just pleading with the National Guardsmen to just let everything be as it is.

 

I remember the National Guardsmen grabbing both ends of his baton, looking Glenn Frank in the eye and said, Either move them out or else, move them out or else. That was the point where Dr. Frank turned around and gave his famous, impassioned speech, begging people to move, to get off the [Blanket] Hill before more shooting would occur. Who knows what would happen? Maybe they would just come and attack us with batons. But who knew? But after his speech, people started getting up and giving credit to the Faculty Marshals and a number of students, myself included, we began to move and give direction and guidance to people to get out of there—move them out. And that's what we did.

 

[00:26:52.81] [Interviewer]: It's interesting to go from this moment of silence, shock, and confusion to this now order to leave the campus. Can you describe that commotion, trying to leave campus and where you went?

 

[00:27:13.84] [Larry Raines]: Afterwards, we all were informed that the campus was shutting down, and they had to leave the campus as soon as possible. Now, I know I've said, in my conversations and even maybe in my writing, that I saw the National Guard setting up tripod machine guns on the lawn. But I don't think that really—in reflecting back, I can't actually say that really did happen.

 

But that was all part of the fear permeating from the results of the shooting and the chaos that it caused—just imagine things going on. But yeah, we were informed that we had to get off campus away, to grab whatever you can and leave.

 

And I remember that, my friend again, Michael Black and I, we hooked up, and we hitchhiked back home to Buffalo. We got picked up pretty quickly by some other people that we knew who were driving.

 

And I remember walking into my house when I finally got home. I just looked at my parents and I screamed, “They're murderers!” My parents were comforted. But it wasn't a warmth that I would have expected because they didn't understand and that was it. They just didn't understand why our generation would be so hostile as to what was happening, especially what they went through in World War II.

 

[00:29:27.25] [Interviewer]: Can you walk me through what the days and weeks were like for you after May 4?

 

[00:29:46.28] [Larry Raines]: I put myself, my family had a dry-cleaning business and before I went to college, I worked in the business. I actually went back to the family business to help me to cope with what was going on.

 

But I still didn't know at that point that what I did at that point realized that Tom Grace was hit, but that he was alive. And that was the most important thing. But I did that. I did know some people in the TV media market in Buffalo. I was asked to come on TV, and they interviewed me on TV about what happened and what I saw.

 

[00:30:42.13] [Interviewer]: Well, that actually goes into my next question. Do you have specific memories of how the media responded to the shootings?

 

[00:30:53.53] [Larry Raines]: Well, factual is the best way I can put it. Unlike today's media, where it's leaning to either political left or political right. And the news was very good and that it just reported on what was happening and asked me questions of what I saw—and it was straightforward.

 

[00:31:25.50] [Interviewer]: To rephrase an earlier question, what was your sense of how local Kent community members or community members in general perceived the Kent State students after May 4?

 

[00:31:39.14] [Larry Raines]: Well again, I had no interaction with the local. But hearing about them, reading in the Kent papers and on the TV, the question was they should have shot more. So that answers your question right there.

 

[00:32:01.56] [Interviewer]: Absolutely. That's something we hear so commonly. Were you hesitant to return to Kent State University once the campus resumed?

 

[00:32:16.27] [Larry Raines]: Hesitant, no. But we had a running joke that there was an FBI agent on every floor. And actually, when I returned for my junior year, again, I lived in Tri-Towers. And right off, I was on the first floor. But yeah, there was a running joke there was some undercover FBI agent on every floor.

 

[00:32:43.07] [Interviewer]: Do you recall if faculty, staff, or administrators addressed the events publicly or privately once the students returned on campus?

 

[00:32:56.59] [Larry Raines]: No, I can't really say that I did. I was just so—I'm so more inward at that point, that I didn't pay attention, or maybe I just didn't care what they said, or felt, or how they tried to cope with it in a University-wide policy or settlement, so to speak.

 

So yeah, no, I really didn't pay too much attention because there was so much anxiety that first fall back and so much ongoing and talking that it was—like I said, I didn't pay attention to the University and what they did.

 

[00:34:01.57] [Interviewer]: How have the events surrounding May 4 and its aftermath impacted you personally, professionally, or politically?

 

[00:34:12.01] [Larry Raines]: Can you repeat your question, please?

 

[00:34:13.47] [Interviewer]: Yes. How have the events surrounding May 4 and its aftermath impacted you personally, professionally, or politically?

 

[00:34:24.13] [Larry Raines]: Well, politically, like I said, I resigned my position as manager of the basketball team to become more involved. And one of the things that I did because the [Kent] 25 people were indicted for rioting, I helped in fundraising for the [Legal] Defense Fund. And one of the things I got involved with was, we had a concert. We provided a concert with Sly and the Family Stone, and the opening act was a woman by the name of Ruth Copeland. I remember she was singing, “Play with Fire,” that’s what it was. She sang, “Play with Fire,” by the [Rolling] Stones, which I thought was phenomenal.

 

And I was backstage with Sly. And I was just listening, wow. And then Sly, of course, he was known for always being late. And yes, he was late for that concert also.

 

But more importantly, we did raise a lot of thousands of dollars to help in the Legal Defense Fund for the Kent 25. That was political. Personally, my anger was just more intense. I wanted to do so much more. I wanted to scream louder. I wanted to be able to get on top of a mountain and yell all over the place, enough is enough. Five hundred deaths of Americans to live is too big of a price to pay for anything, especially when we all felt it was a worthless war. A war in which didn't affect America, so to speak. A war in which our government made us try to believe that we needed to fight this war to protect democracy, which obviously was not true.

 

Professionally, no, no. My political and personal, I would not have acted professionally because I went back into the family business. But what it did allow me to do is to have conversations with a number of my customers to help let them know what I went through and my feelings it and listening to their feelings.

 

[00:37:00.24] [Interviewer]: You have a very unique perspective in knowing three of the students that were either wounded or killed—those being Dean Kahler, Sandy Scheuer, and Tom Grace. Do you think that witnessing those events and people that were a part of your life, do you think that there was an emotional impact on your life?

 

[00:37:28.84] [Larry Raines]: I'm still emotionally impacted by that. As a matter of fact, when I first met you this past May, I came up to for the memorial for the first time, really by myself. Usually, when I come up, and I don't come up a lot, I don't go there a lot. Usually, I have a buddy of mine, one of my former roommates, we come together. That time I came alone and I have to say it was the most emotional time I've ever had to that just being in the parking lot.

 

Now, I didn't mention this, but when the shooting started and I said I had my hand on the lamppost—had I been two feet to the left, I might have taken the bullet that hit Sandy. As you know, there are pictures of the directions of the bullet. You've seen those pictures.

 

[00:38:43.31] [Interviewer]: Yes.

 

[00:38:45.01] [Larry Raines]: So literally, two feet to my left. I mean, I don't know how fast the bullet drops or which way it was in, but I would have been right in the direction now. To give you another perspective, which I didn't mention earlier. When the shooting started, I said that Jeffrey Miller was about ten to fifteen yards to my right when I turned around to run. When the shooting started, I was still looking up the Hill toward the Pagoda. To my left ten to fifteen, Alan Canfora where he got hit. Straight up to my left and going up the Hill was where Tom Grace got hit.

 

Behind me, on my right again, if I'm looking up the Hill with my hand on the lamppost, behind me, about thirty or forty yards, just to my right is where Allison [Krause] was killed. And there were a couple of guys who were injured in the parking lot.

 

There were people killed and injured all around me. You might say I was one of the lucky ones that day, because how I didn't get hit is just, like I said, that's why this time, this past May was the most emotional time there for me, because I just realized how lucky I was that day.

 

[00:40:47.20] [Interviewer]: Absolutely. To walk that location and see how close everything is, you're right—fortunate, lucky, blessed, whatever it may be. Yeah, like you said, if you could have been just a few inches or a few feet in a different direction, we may not be speaking today.

 

Can you talk about what lessons you hope future generations should take away from what happened that day?

 

[00:41:24.45] [Larry Raines]: Obviously, to me, the biggest lesson is to keep government in your sight, to make sure government is working for you and not against you. Whatever your political beliefs are, our government is what keeps our nation moving forward. And I only hope that future generations become more of an activist.

 

You're never going to see a generation like ours because the Vietnam War was something that was so intense that it overtook our generation because of the number of people being killed. And basically, there were a lot of other political issues that started coming up during the war.

 

But once the Vietnam War started to wind down and end, all those other political issues kind of like went off to the wayside and didn't really make a difference anymore. But future generations need to be aware of what's going on with the government and how it's working for or against you.

 

[00:43:01.75] [Interviewer]: Absolutely. I think this project is a testament of allowing future generations to learn about the history of the Kent State Shootings and how it can inform future activism, protests, et cetera. I thank you because that's very insightful. Is there anything else you would like to talk about that we haven't covered today?

 

[00:43:32.79] [Larry Raines]: Well, I don't know how long the May 4 Commemoration will go on. But one thing, and I mentioned this to Tom Grace in a conversation afterwards, why doesn't the University—and I know University plans everything out now. Why doesn't the University have people who were there, like myself, for example, get up and speak at the commemoration service now?

 

And I mentioned that to Tom. Him and I had a discussion. He said, “Well, I don't know, but maybe they will do a panel discussion, and you could do that.” And I don't want to do a panel discussion. I want people to hear what—there's so many people like myself, who were there, who have a story that they would like to share. Other people don't know that you hear from the same people all the time. If the university, in my mind, wants to keep this going, you need to bring in other people to talk about what they saw, what they did, and how they felt that day.

 

[00:45:01.69] [Interviewer]: Absolutely. I'd be happy to relay that. And again, that goes kind of into our project. Our goal is to capture as many of those voices that we aren't hearing. And your story is a prime example of that, where you have such a rich and unique perspective. And I want to thank you again for participating in this project. And yes, absolutely, we would love to hear those other voices. So, thank you for mentioning that.

 

[00:45:37.73] [Larry Raines]: Let me ask you this, Liz. How many people have participated in the oral history? Can you give me a number?

 

[00:45:48.50] [Interviewer]: Yes. Let me pause the recording, okay? I'm going to stop the recording.

 

[Break in the recording]

 

[Interviewer]: We are back, Larry. And you wanted to give us a brief summary?

 

[00:46:02.86] [Larry Raines]: Not a summary, but I want to make a statement that I have in my written history. And this really summed it up to me overall. And it is a sad commentary when American soldiers are killing American citizens on American soil.

 

[00:46:27.54] [Interviewer]: Wow.

 

[00:46:30.60] [Larry Raines]: Thank you.

 

[00:46:31.10] [Interviewer]: Thank you for sharing that. And again, thank you, Larry, for participating in the Kent State Shootings Oral History Project.

 

[00:46:39.02] [Larry Raines]: Thank you.

 

[End of Recording]

 

×