Transcription of the recorded statement of Ferne Shipley conducted by Jeff Zink on behalf of the Commission on KSU Violence.

[Beginning of Tape 1]

[Jeff Zink]: This is Dr. Shipley, and my first question would be, is what do you feel the basic cause for violence on our campus were? You could go back, as far back as you’d like to go.

[Ferne Shipley]: Well, I can’t give a very detailed answer. Maybe because students with whom I am associated with, almost entirely, have not been violent in their classes, and in my classes, unintelligible] any strong feelings. All this year and last year, we’ve been at work on taking a serious look at our program, our curriculum. And we have called students from the beginning, so that anything they had to say about our own program will be part of the proceeding, and will eventually be part of the recommendation. Some of the recommendations have already been made. So, in terms of our own majors, I don’t feel that there have been any strong manifestations of disagreement with our program. And no strong feelings about disorder, so, I perhaps do not have the kind of information that you want.

[Jeff Zink]: Well, what role do you feel that the faculty has played in what happened here at Kent State? In other words, how did they or did they not contribute to the frustrations that might’ve finally ended up in violence?

[Ferne Shipley]: Well, again, from our own departmental experience, I would have to say that I doubt that many of our people participated in activity that could be [unintelligible]. However, I don’t know all of those [unintelligible]. As far as the faculty, I think that without a doubt, some faculty has contributed. One of the strenghts of our department is the strong student advisors. This has always been [unintelligible]. Students come regularly to see us, we have open door policy, there are office hours established, students [unintelligible], so that this can’t be a complaint. They might not like a particular instructor, but so far as I know, this has not risen to the surface as being a criticism. If you looked at our quadrennial review, you will see these are–see the strength [unintelligible], the close student-faculty feeling, and the cooperation. But I think when students feel the instructor is not well-prepared, does not meet his class, and does not try to make what he’s talking about particularly, of course, dealing with what the student’s going to do as in teaching, you would have cause for complaint, [unintelligible]. [unintelligible] classes, and when anybody is ill, or there’s something wrong with them, we simply do not cancel, we take each other’s classes. And most of us have taught a good many of the courses, so this is not a problem. I don’t think there are the problems, in terms of student dissension in this department, that there might be in other, larger departments. We’re smaller and [unintelligible] keep in touch [unintelligible], recently well, but we are growing, and this could be something that we really must watch [unintelligible].

[Jeff Zink]: What makes your advising system, do you feel, especially effective?

[Ferne Shipley]: One, that we see our people in small groups when they’re freshmen. And we take them to University School where they see what it is they’re really going to do. They get acquainted with teachers there, they’re told they could go and observe anytime they want to, we see them once every quarter, and it’s often thereafter that they wish to come, that is, we see them when the [unintelligible] in order to talk with them about their [unintelligible]. Freshmen, in particular, [unintelligible] if they have failed a course, [unintelligible]. We find that they come to us to talk about what to do next or they made a decision. Not all of them, but many of them. But the fact that we say to them, “Now come every quarter.” Then, when they are juniors, because our people have two quarters of student teaching, and some three, they must take certain courses in their junior year so they’re ready. And we do pre-registration, then we receive it, if they did not receive it before. But this is because they know that we’re set up with ways to take care of it. If they come in and let us know what they want, we’ll do pre-registration for the [unintelligible] of courses. [Unintelligible]. Now, the student comes in with the program laid out, [unintelligible], and by the way, we now have four men, one of whom is a student teacher for fall, two of them will be ready for student teaching [unintelligible]. But the student makes out a program, brings it in, we talk about it, we talk about what may or may not work, answer the student’s questions, discuss student teaching, [unintelligible]. [unintelligible], basically, I think a close working relationship with them, on a professional basis. [Unintelligible].

[Jeff Zink]: Do you feel that tenure has been any problem to your department?

[Ferne Shipley]: [unintelligible]

[Jeff Zink]: Oh, [unintelligible].

[Ferne Shipley]: I have class at 10:30.

[Jeff Zink]: [Unintelligible]

[Ferne Shipley]: Tenure? Some of our people have tenure, some of them don’t. The strongest people among us, except for one, have tenure. So, I don’t see this as a problem. Now, I could see how it could be, but at present, I don’t see a problem at this point.

[Jeff Zink]: Okay. What role do you feel that the students play in the violence that occurred here?

[Ferne Shipley]: Our students? I don’t know. I had to have been home that day, I was ill. And I was home the next day. And, like you, I heard many things. As far as I know, we had a few of our people who were observers, they could see what was going on, but I do not know how deeply involved any more may have been. I think many students are, but be very careful about whom they talk with, and I could certainly understand why. They don’t really want to talk about this. When we met some of them in our homes, and other places between May and the end of June, or the end of the spring quarter, they were so glad to see each other. We had so many things to talk about, but they didn’t talk about [unintelligible]. Now, how many were involved, deeply involved, I don’t know.

[Jeff Zink]: Do you feel that outsiders–

[End of Tape 1]

[Beginning of Tape 2]

[Jeff Zink]: What role do you feel outsiders played in the violence that occurred here?

[Ferne Shipley]: Well again, I would have to go by only what I had heard and I don’t like to repeat what are opinions. I don’t know how much of what I have heard are facts and what is fiction. I would gather that there were some people, students or others, moving about from place to place or from campus to campus. I think it’s a good possibility. Who or how many, I don’t know.

[Jeff Zink]: What type of job do you think the administration has been doing here at the university?

[Ferne Shipley]: When you say the administration, you could mean–

[Jeff Zink]: I mean president, vice presidents, and down through the deans.

[Ferne Shipley]: Well, I have great respect for [White?]. I think he’s worked very hard. I’m sure he’s made some mistakes, but I think there is no one more dedicated, more [unintelligible]. I happen to know [White?] because he was dean of the College of Education. I was on the curriculum committee and other committees where he chaired, where he was chairman, and I know that he has a great deal of ability and great deal of dedication. So, in terms of his responsibility, which have increased rapidly as the university has grown, even though he’s surrounded himself with people to help, I have no large complaint.

[Jeff Zink]: Do you think that the way the May 1st through 4th incidents were handled was proper?

[Ferne Shipley]: Again, I don’t know exactly how they were handled because immediately after this, when we were able to come on campus [unintelligible], our task was to get busy and see what we could do to make reasonable assignments for those people who [unintelligible]. Immediately following the president’s address, [unintelligible] and said let’s see, what can we do to help our students finish the term [unintelligible]? And on Monday, we came in with materials that were prepared for the seniors and were put in the mail [unintelligible]. What we were doing, what I believed we ought to do, was to get busy and work in our own corner to serve students who were our own responsibility. It seemed to me that this is what the dean was doing immediately, well, we had a dean [unintelligible], and we had meetings in the College of Education, and in the department, and in subgroups within the department. We have eight sections [unintelligible]. So, what I’m saying is that it appeared to me that all of us were trying to seek ways to serve students [unintelligible]. We were not, I, will speak for myself, was not as actively assembling faculty groups to talk about feelings. Now, maybe this was wrong. What we were doing was talking about what we could do to help the students who had to finish [unintelligible]. Now, I think [unintelligible] and to look at what had happened. But immediately following that, our students were [unintelligible].

[Jeff Zink]: What do you think about academic freedom in that? Do you feel there is enough or not enough? Or too much?

[Ferne Shipley]: What’s your definition of academic freedom?

[Jeff Zink]: That has to be your own definition. I wouldn’t want to put–

[Ferne Shipley]: When you say academic freedom, you almost have to define what you mean. Do you mean by the freedom of the instructor to teach as he wishes, to use the material, what he believes ought to be used, to push the learning ahead in particular? You ask what do I think. Well, we live in a [divide?] [unintelligible] and it would seem to me that it would be important for the instructor to have considerable freedom to teach as he believes. And yet, I think that one has to be cognizant of what the purposes of the university are, even [unintelligible]. What are the purposes of the university? Have what we do go along with these purposes. As far as we’re concerned, we think it’s important that our students know about as many ways of working with children as ourselves. And we like to look critically at those ways that we do not think. For example, I don’t think every child ought to be marched through the Montessori material [unintelligible]. I think there are many good things about it, but I think it’s important for our students to know that there are many ways to teach a child to learn how to read. Good ways, some not. So, I would hope that, and in fact, we encourage right now, one of my staff members is off visiting a public school to learn about a particular way of guiding the child who has difficulty in learning, and she is hoping that she can invite this instructor to come to her class tomorrow to describe it. So, I think the teacher ought to be free to, within the purposes of the course, to teach as freely as possible. But I think the purposes of the university, the purposes of the course, ought to be adhered to. It helps you [unintelligible], I’m not sure you can help anybody. I think the students should have the same option. There ought to be a difference in assignments, [unintelligible], allowing himself academic freedom to pursue his level within, perhaps a range of assignments he can select one or he can make his own assignments, for example, in his curriculum. The students have had their student teaching and the course begins with, “What are your strengths as you see them? What do you feel you’re ready to do? What are some areas where you feel less well-prepared? Make your own assignments in these areas. We’ll meet with you and help you find material.” This is practical work and perhaps, maybe give the teacher a [unintelligible].

[Jeff Zink]: What criteria do you use for promotion in the department?

[Ferne Shipley]: Faculty promotion? [Unintelligible].

[Jeff Zink]: Yes, but I mean, what weights do you put on [guidelines?].

[Ferne Shipley]: Well, the weights are there also in the sense that these are pretty much laid down in the guidelines. When it is time for evaluation, for example–

[End of Tape 2]

[Beginning of Tape 3]

[Jeff Zink]: What criteria–we already–what, how do you weigh your evaluation or your criteria for promotion in the department?

[Ferne Shipley]: Part of this depends on what the person’s been hired to do. If the person is hired to do mainly teaching, it’s the teaching that you have the most attention every time the person is evaluated. If the person is hired, for example, to do full-time supervision of teachers, it is this that gets attention.

[Jeff Zink]: How do you evaluate good teaching?

[Ferne Shipley]: Well, this would take a very long time to answer. However, I think good teaching involves, or a good method involves really knowing what you’re doing. Do you know without the–

[Jeff Zink]: I mean, how do you, as a department chairman, evaluate the people under you? I mean, do you go into their classroom? Do you observe them?

[Ferne Shipley]: I have done some of it. I have been in and met most of their classrooms. Not for the purpose of evaluating, but for the purpose of either teaming with them, or being asked to come in to see something that’s going on, or to participate in a discussion with a student, or to present something. But each instructor prepares some sheets that are distributed to students at the beginning of the term. I love to teach, again to inform myself, or they will say, “Would you like to see what we’re going to be doing? It’s different this time from what we did last time.” It’s quite informal [unintelligible]. I tend to function this way. On the other hand, I think evaluation at this level is exceedingly difficult. One thinks about the teaching personnel and they think how does an individual meet his student? Is he prepared? And what does he know, what does he do with the classroom? What kinds of tests are taken? What kinds of other kinds of evaluations are used? How much does the person study? This is difficult. Does the person upgrade to work? What kinds of textbooks are used? How are they selected? What kinds of grades will they give the students? Do they all get A’s and B’s? The one person, a very fine teacher, and the fact that I know this person is a good teacher, so I know they’ll find it’s hard to give lower grades, doesn’t mean that I think less of them as a teacher, part of the grades [unintelligible]. The willingness of these people to go beyond the matter of instruction. Are they interested in the careful study of a course? Not only to perhaps change it, but perhaps to assess actually what they are doing. And this means sitting down with other people and discussing what they’re doing in their courses. Examining in a helpful, searching way, what it is they’re doing. Are they willing to do these kinds of things? How effective are they on curriculum? We have two people this last year who served all year. As chairman I want the undergraduate studies [unintelligible]. And I would wager she [unintelligible]. I feel certain student feedback is minimal I think.  I don’t go out searching. I tend not to function this way. I think what they say is important. It does come back in a variety of ways, but I won’t invite it. [Unintelligible].

[Jeff Zink]: It’s interesting. What do you think about having ROTC on campus?

[Ferne Shipley]: Some members of my family have been associated with ROTC. My brother [unintelligible] ROTC at one point. So, I’ve been indoctrinated in some ways that perhaps other people have not. As far as I’m concerned, I see no reason to eliminate this. On the other hand, I may not have a very broad picture. The ROTC young man I had known was [unintelligible]. Our model for some of our young men, that I think are [unintelligible]. On the other hand, I haven’t followed them closely, I don’t know whether they are now doing some kind of things that deter the learning or interfere with the learning of other students. I don’t think this is their purpose, but if it does then absolutely [unintelligible],  I personally know [unintelligible].

[Jeff Zink]: What sort of a role do you feel politicians such as Governor Rhodes and the mayor of the city played in the violence that occurred here?

[Ferne Shipley]: The mayor’s been a good mayor, but I think that he means to, meaning well, very well, he was [unintelligible], he had pressure put on him by other people, people who wanted him to take some action. I’m sure that he thought he was doing the best he could for both the town and the students that found it’s way to them too. [Unintelligible]. Their family who loved, cherished education [unintelligible]. I know they have concern for education, but I think he probably needs to [unintelligible]. And I am certain that the governor, believing in quote, “law and order” did what he thought he ought to do.

[Jeff Zink]: Do you have any specific solutions you would offer to avoid future violence on the campus?

[Ferne Shipley]: Well, I think the involvement of students in looking at what happened, and their role, I think students [unintelligible]. I think they got, and I, include myself, the faculty, we’ve got to be more concerned about individual students. I don’t know that we could be, that I myself could need more [unintelligible]. This isn’t to say that I am more concerned than anybody else on campus, [unintelligible].

[End of Tape 3]

[Beginning of Tape 4]

[Ferne Shipley]: I would hope that there would be some way to be controlled. Those who want to be here, again, aren’t interested in being controlled. Evidently, there are some who have taken one course [unintelligible]. There must have been a year of this girl who was from Georgia, Florida, she was up here and evidently staying in a dorm [unintelligible], either posing as a student or actually being here without actually being enrolled in the University. The University was forced to [unintelligible], so I would hope that there would be some way of being reasonably certain that the people who are here are [unintelligible]. I think that, perhaps, working more closely with those who have [unintelligible] problem identification, perhaps, need some remedial help or some health link. I think there’s disturbed students here who really have more problems than we have any idea. [Unintelligible] enough psychological help, enough medical help for students who have medical problems, enough services for the kinds of problems that are represented among students, and I’m not sure that we do. I have a notion that the dormitory counselors are too few. I really think that a serious student sometimes has a very hard time finding a place to study. The open hours in dormitories don’t leave much studying time. I’m not sure, I think a serious student needs a place to study, and I have students say to me, “Well, I really don’t have any place to study.” The fact that we have a little department library here in 306 has been a haven for some students to stay and study, [unintelligible]. These are some of the things [unintelligible].

[Jeff Zink]: That’s all I have as far as questions. Do you have any last or final comment that you’d like to make?

[Ferne Shipley]: Well, I’m not sure that I do. I think that [unintelligible] making should reveal important aspects of the way faculty look at their work. [Unintelligible]. I think that one goes on change because of [unintelligible] report may suggest something. It may cause though, the people to assess what they’re doing, which I think is a more intelligent approach to look anew at what they’re doing and perhaps to move in some direction that seems pertinent to them, not necessarily in line with the report, the report finding suggests areas of further search [unintelligible].

[End of Tape 4] ×